20 | "Exploring and Connecting" | Adventures in Traveling

In this episode of Where We Rise, Khalila sits down with award‑winning author and world traveler Meg Stafford to explore how curiosity, courage, and connection shape a life of adventure. Meg shares the stories behind her book Who Will Accompany You?, the travels that shaped her, and the journeys her daughters took that stretched her heart in new ways.

You’ll hear Meg reflect on:

• The curiosity that led her around the world
• What it felt like to leave her 17‑year‑old daughter at a monastery in Nepal
• The fear and pride of watching her older daughter accompany peace communities in Colombia
• Why travel helps her “breathe more deeply” and reconnect with herself
• How hiking and biking offer a slower, richer way to experience a place
• Why you don’t have to cross the world to feel the magic of exploration

Meg reminds us that travel doesn’t have to be far to be meaningful — “there’s plenty of it close to home.” Whether you’re dreaming of mountains, oceans, or your nearest state park, this conversation will inspire you to look for wonder wherever you are.

Connect with Meg

Website: www.megstafford.com

Connect with Khalila

Instagram:  @wherewerisepod

Email: WhereWeRisePod@gmail.com

Transcript

Khalila McCoy 0:00

Hey, I'm Khalila McCoy, and this is a show that will have you ready to take on the world. This is Where We Rise. Welcome everyone. Welcome to the 20th episode of Where We Rise. I am so happy to be here with you. And whether it's your very first episode or you've been with me since day one, shout out to Mom, Dad, and DJ. I truly appreciate your support. I always encourage you to reach out to me and leave me a message, and I really mean that. I love hearing from you. We have listeners all across the U.S. and even a few tuning in from around the world. My hope is that every episode has encouraged you, inspired you, or given you something new to think about and to talk about. Let me know if there is a story that you need to hear. Today we are hearing from author and world traveler Meg Stafford. She will have you booking a flight or gassing up the car for your next adventure, ready for the beauty of the people and places waiting for you. I ordered Meg's book, Who Will Accompany You, My Mother-Daughter Journeys Far from Home and Close to the Heart. And from the very first pages, I could feel the love and excitement she had for her daughters in traveling and the depth of their experiences and the richness of the people they met along the way. I had only a few chapters left when it was time for us to sit down and chat, but hearing her speak and then going back to finish the book made the story come alive even more. So let's listen to Meg share about her travels, and afterward, I'll let you know how you can get your own copy of her book. Hi, Meg. How are you today?

Meg Stafford 1:46

I'm really well. Thank you. How are you? I'm happy to be here.

Khalila McCoy 1:50

Yeah, I'm doing really well too, and I'm very excited to talk to you. We're gonna be talking to you today about your travels. And you wrote a book, and I actually have a copy of it here with me. So who will accompany you? Yeah, I didn't I will be honest with you, I haven't finished reading it. We have a lot of books that I have to read on my list, but it is very good. It is very interesting. I was engaged the whole entire time and I even penned some things that I want to ask you about. So I'm excited for you to share your story, to share about your book. Um, we'll definitely add it in our show notes at the end. But before we jump into that, just go ahead and explain who you are and how this book and this traveling bug got inside of you.

Meg Stafford 2:37

Um well, I do think that the travel bug was there from very early on. Um my friend that I've known since I was four reminds me that that summer we met at camp and found out that we lived sort of off of two spurs off of a huge horseshoe. And when I found out that she just lived on the other side of it, I just marched myself through people's yards right across to her house. She thought that I was, I think, a little nuts for just venturing forth on my own. But like it, I was intrigued to go see where she lived, and so I just went at it. So um, I've always been curious about other people's houses and how they lived. And um my first trip abroad was when I was 14, and friends of the family were chaperoning a trip through the college that our that uh my friend's um dad and my dad both worked at um to France. And so that was my introduction. I had been taking Spanish in school, but that was my first trip to France, and I was I l just loved it so much. I spent three weeks in the dorm until they determined that a 14-year-old should not be living in the dorm. I said, it has to be you have to be over 18. Then I got to live with my friend and her family, and they were living in a big complex where there were lots of kids, so I got to meet people that way, and then I traveled with them for two weeks after, so I knew I would be going back. And um, I spent a semester of college in southern France. I started taking French in college, and um after college, I knew that I couldn't hop right to a job right away. I just needed to spread my wings, so I traveled across the country by bus by myself, and actually my first stop was Columbus, Ohio. Oh, really? I had a one of the a friend who I had been a counselor with at overnight camp was living there. So I stopped and visited Columbus for a couple of days and my friend, and then made you uh it was the ticket was two weeks as long as you were continuing west. And so I took two weeks to get across the country, visited another friend in um um in St. Louis, and spent a day in the Grand Canyon uh by myself. That's an odd thing, and a day in Las Vegas by myself, really odd thing to do when you're 22. Ended up in California, and so it it's um and traveled up to San Francisco, but it's lived lived there for a year, met an Englishman, uh, we moved in together, and I lived in Bristol for eight months, and then when I um came to the Boston area for graduate school, it's like, okay, now I've got to be in one place for a while and still loved love to travel when I can, but went to graduate school, started working, and I evidently passed on my love of travelers. Uh so I I shouldn't have been surprised when they wanted to strike off to faraway places on their own. Gail went to Costa Rica as uh after her sophomore year in high school, spent five weeks there. Uh, and then when Kate was a senior in high school, they went to a charter school which encouraged uh off-campus travel in support of the research for their senior project. And her senior project was on the question, what is happiness? And she wanted to study meditation and Buddhism at uh a monastery in Kathmandu, Nepal. So uh a friend of mine says, Why didn't you just say no? But I couldn't do that. Like if she's right, that's an amazing opportunity. Right. And so we decided that we couldn't uh we were not comfortable just popping her on a plane. She had just turned 17. Um I went with her, and while she studied meditation and Buddhism at the Kopan Monastery, a friend of mine from here was living in Hong Kong for two years, and I wrote to her and said, What do you think about coming with me to trek to the Annapurna base camp uh for a couple weeks? And she said, Great, but it would have to be these dates. And it was exactly lined up with when we were gonna go. Oh wow. So she we met in Kathmandu and spent a couple of days there, and then we deposited Kate at um at Copand, which is just out just outside the big part of the city. Uh very hard to leave her there, and then uh the next day she and I got a little tiny plane over to um to another town to to start the trek. So we'd guide uh and a porter to carry our bags, thank goodness. Right. And my book was really inspired by Kate's and mine differing experiences and yet some similar experiences. Okay. She she was required to keep a journal as part of her project, so she had a lot of notes, and I was keeping a journal just because that's what I like to do when I travel, try and remember things and note down things. Um and so it it was very medium, even the hiking, like I was very active hiking, but there weren't a lot of people on the trails, and so there was a lot of silence, and it was early in the season. So even at the the little huts that we stayed at were not very crowded until we got to the the peak. There we were sometimes the only people staying there. Uh, but as we got closer to the top, there were fewer, fewer places near the base camp. And uh at the base camp itself, there was a blizzard while we were there. It was like four feet of snow over the we were there, and there were a bunch of people there from all over the world, and we told stories about about our travels, actually. Uh mostly. But then it it seemed like it would be interesting for other people to hear about Kate's experiences as a 17-year-old being far from anyone or anything, and my experiences as her mom, like dropping her off there and not having an easy means to get in touch with her. So that was that inspired the first part of the book. And then I realized it was not, it was the next year that our older daughter was um an accompanier witness in the northwestern part of the country of Colombia because it was a peace, an intentionally peaceful community that didn't align with either the military, the paramilitary, or the guerrillas. And so this organization wore uh bright blue shirts and literally walked with them from one place to another uh in order to keep them safe, unarmed, but yeah, because of their presence, they knew that uh if there were to be any kind of incident, it would become international because their organization was connected to the UN and and other organizations. But there had been shots fired and people had died years previously. So I wanted to have feet on the ground and see what it was like. And um it was amazing to be there. And she Gail, the our older daughter, also wrote a lot about it, and I thought again, it would be interesting for people to see what it was it like for me as a parent, for my husband and I as parents of a 23-year-old off so far away and doing an extremely responsible job. What was it like for her? What was it like for us, and what was it like for us to explore the culture and the beauty in each of these places as we move along? So it was um so both trips fascinating in their own way. Yes, and uh which we're going on and knocking. So then uh after Nepal, Kate and I went to Bhutan for three days because Bhutan has a a happiness quotient. You know, they're known for that. Now they they literally send out questionnaires to their population.

Khalila McCoy 11:38

Which is so interesting. I thought that was really neat.

Meg Stafford 11:42

It's uh it's amazing. You know, they they at the time their population was around 700,000, so it's like a uh like smaller than a lot of cities in the US, but still like they have a king and queen, uh and people really honor and feel like they are benevolent and supportive. So it's uh it was amazing going on those journeys, and both Kate and Gail still love to travel, um, whether it is um to other countries. Kate went to Iceland recently, Gail went back to Colombia. Um, she's they she went to Spain the other year, like the it's important to both of them to um visit other cultures and and to keep up with the people that they've met.

Khalila McCoy 12:31

So let's kind of back up a little bit. So I know you talk about this in your book as well, but you talked a lot about just now the idea of letting your child go and both girls going to different places, feeling safe. How do you deal with that? Because you also talked about yourself as a girl as well, right? Traveling across the United States by yourself. So you know, like this is something that I've done, this is something that I, you know, gathered a lot from. And then when your daughters want to do it, right? And I obviously as a parent versus your own self, there's a little bit of different a different fear there. But how did you take what your experience was and then now being a parent into okay, now my daughters want to do the same thing?

Meg Stafford 13:17

Yes. Um certainly I I understood the desire. And um I remembered when I was 16, I wanted to go to Greece with friends, and my parents said no, and I was peeved, but I understand that. You know, like not with a group, but we were just gonna march off there. And uh, so I wanted to be able to support their yearning and desire to stretch, but also make sure that they were doing it in uh um in a safe way. And so with Kate, if she were going to a closer country or somewhere where it's we could reach her or just have some sense that there'd be someone to meet her, even I might have been more comfortable with it. But it was so far, she had uh spent a lot of time on her own, so I knew that uh on her own, meaning she had been away at camp for a number of weeks at a time. Um, so that part would be not as difficult, but she'd never been so far away, so it seemed like the best compromise for me to go with her there and like and turn it into an adventure for us. So uh and then with Gail, because she was 23 when she did this, it was really her decision that she was she was uh doing she was supporting, she was being paid somewhat, it was mostly uh like she she had a place to live and you know I had a small stipend. But uh so I could uh talk with her about the experience and what the decision was and what it would mean, but I didn't feel like I could make the decision for her. So it meant that uh I had to trust her judgment. And if she had spoken with the organization and felt like they made provisions to keep people as safe as possible, um I I was not in a position to say no. So um it made me nervous, but I also um really appreciated her commitment to the whole project and her desire to go there and to um be involved in something that she was really putting her heart into. So I uh I I admired them both for their desire to do something out of the box and different, and wanted to support it as much as I can, as difficult as it was. There were a couple of times, and uh well, there were a couple times at various points, not not uh on this trip, but when they were both in places where I couldn't reach them, and that was difficult. Kate after um after high school, because of this trip to Nepal, she knew that she didn't want to go right to college, and she went to South Africa um to Cape Town and did a a project there for several months. And um there was a period of time where we couldn't get in touch with her, we didn't know where she was. It's like at first we saw that she had posted on Facebook, but then there was like nothing. And she was with an organization. We called them and said, like, what look, what's going on? And she finally got back to us and said, Oh, we had this opportunity to travel as a group and there was no service. And I rode on an ostrich and I squeezed through a cave, I could barely jump through, and I went bungee jumping in the biggest can in the world. Like, okay.

Khalila McCoy 17:12

Uh so she's having the time of her life, and you're just worried, like, where are you?

Meg Stafford 17:17

Right. She just didn't have a way to be in touch. Yeah. Okay. Um, and then there was a time when Gail was in uh, I think she was in Chile at the time, and there was just one community that there was just poor service. So it was just a matter of of trusting that that it would be okay. I could like send my love to them through the answer. But uh couldn't verify it. And it was when she was in Colombia, it it um the cell phone service was more reliable than than internet. So it's uh and certainly way more reliable than mail, like the written mail. When she was in Costa Rica, I had sent her uh sent her a few things and it never got there, but like the address was um the church across the street from the general store that was on the hill. It's like such an impress in my it to my uh Eastern American way of thinking, such an imprecise address. Uh and I sent her some of her jewelry and it never arrived, and it's like we were we were all very disappointed, but yeah, it it it by following their lead and um supporting them as best as I can through it, I I think we all learned a lot.

Khalila McCoy 18:49

Yeah. Now you went with um you went with Kate on her trip, kind of. Were you traveling with Gail?

Meg Stafford 18:58

Um Gail was in Colombia for altogether a year and a half, and um and I went down for a week, and she she came and met me in Medellin, and we went to Cartagena, which is on the coast, and spent a couple of days there. She got a couple days off, and then we went back to the community where she was living, which was um a 45-minute jeep ride and an hour and a half hike up to the community where she was living, and I spent um three or four days there. Uh so I was only I was only there for a week, but she was there uh for a year and a half. She spent the first nine months in the community, and then she spent the second nine months in Bogota, which is the head the um the headquarters for where the organization is, and she did she still did some accompanying that, but she would have to take buses to get there, and it was um it was a different different kind of experience, and she worked on policy and uh um different aspects of it. So we saw her um like once or twice. She came up and met us because Kate went to college in Edinburgh after her time in Nepal and then going to South Africa. Um she decided that she wanted to go to school in um in the UK if she could, because after her time in South Africa, she traveled in Europe for six weeks with a friend. So she took another year off and um lived and traveled in New Zealand for six months, like got into school and then uh and then moved there. And Gail met us to bring her to school in Edinburgh, so we like got to see her then, but we didn't get to see her a lot over those the the year and a half that she was there, except for that week.

Khalila McCoy 21:07

So your girls are traveling and getting experiences all over the world, and I know you yourself have done that too. What is some of you mentioned before the idea of curiosity is why you wanted, you know, to go and see other people and their houses and things like that. What type of curiosity led you around the world?

Meg Stafford 21:29

Um that same, and I still have it, that that same curiosity to um to see how different people live, what kind of foods there are. I I love the natural environment, and so it it it's has I have loved, I've done a few hiking trips and uh biking trips. We we've done biking around Denmark and uh around Portugal and Amsterdam. Amsterdam to to Bruges, Amsterdam and Belgium. And it's um it's a lovely way to see the place. I love the architecture, I love the trying new foods, I love seeing what's important to people, uh, the ways in which people are similar, the ways in which they're different. I just uh find all of it fascinating. And also one of the things that I love about travel is that I feel that I can be most open. Okay. Um because there's so much newness that there that it is easy just to to have an open mind and to learn about what's there. It's right. So any of my own expectations I can can just set aside. So I love being able to uh be open to to what I'm seeing.

Khalila McCoy 22:58

So yeah, that's what I was gonna say. What is something, a big thing that changed for you after traveling?

Meg Stafford 23:07

One of the things about my trip with Kate was reminding me how important travel is. Because we had traveled as a family, but when the girls were young, we didn't have a lot of money and we didn't I didn't have a lot of time or time off. Um and it's harder to travel with young kids. Right. So being back and hiking in the mountains reminded me of how um deeply important it is for me to spend time in the mountains. I just that's like I love the ocean, but I'm a mountain girl at heart. And uh in fact, just just earlier this week, I went skiing with a friend in New Hampshire, and I hadn't been in New Hampshire for a long time. And it's like, oh, I just it just like I can breathe more deeply and I feel like I relax in a way that I that I don't other places. So um it it made me realize how I have to feed that part of myself because I just love it so much and just love being there. I come back renewed and refreshed and uh and ready to go back again. And it it is uh it it's an important balance for me because my I'm a I'm a social worker in private practice, so I see people for psychotherapy, and that is really important to me, but but in order to keep myself um fresh and feeling on top of it and and ready to connect with people, I need to have my own time and my own space away from other things. So it's part of what really creates the balance in my life. Um and uh along with exercise, that's that's important. So these vacations where I'm hiking in a different place or biking in a different place, it's like it satisfies both uh needs at once. And it's a slow way of seeing a place. I mean, you can cover a lot of ground in the car, but um, if you're hiking or you're biking, your pace is slower and you can really take it in. And I um I really like that.

Khalila McCoy 25:41

Yeah, I like that thought too. I hadn't really thought of it that way, like a slower way to really absorb a culture or a place, or even like you said, just nature. That's really neat.

Meg Stafford 25:54

That's yeah, that has been uh like it it it it has not gotten old. That's uh just it is like every every time, and that's um I also feel like people can uh we we can all do that. It it's there was uh there are places, there are parks nearby that I've not been to, and it's fun just to go to um an a a different state park or a different local park or a different restaurant. Right because it's again that newness and sharing it with someone else. It is wonderful to see what they think about it, what how is it different, how is it similar. Uh so it's uh it can be done on a small scale. It doesn't you don't have to be going across the world to satisfy some of that curiosity and um and interest and and love of nature. There's there's plenty of it close to home. Almost almost anywhere you are.

Khalila McCoy 27:05

Right. Yeah, you're right. You talked about meeting different people on your trips and seeing different cultures and noticing the similarities and differences. So where you are, right? Humans are humans. What are some things that you felt were very similar? And then some differences that either surprised you or that you felt you really learned from.

Meg Stafford 27:25

There was one, and I talked about this in the book, there was one experience in Colombia where we were up in the uh the village where Gail was living, and like she was she said, I'm gonna have to introduce you to everybody. And you know, it's uh so there were some of the differences and some of the similarities, but some of the differences were that the animals roamed free there. So Daisy the cow could just come right up and uh we would throw like banana peels or any kind of peels literally out the window. There were no screens, just throw them out the window, and the animals, you know, horses, like uh, there were little pigs roaming around. They would just come and eat them. And I thought, like, there is the the no waste, and you don't need to compost. The animals will just come pick it up. Uh I I loved uh, but they were free roaming, but they were not uh it's not like you could just pick up any little piggy roaming by, you know, they were also like it was an interesting blend of um they're not really being um not not wild, not domestic, but but it was interesting combination. Or I'm like they thought nothing of it, but Daisy once went right through their house on the way to the back where that is, and he peed in the house. No, but had to be they said, Oh, it's no big deal. It's like there's a drain right in the middle and just went right down. We washed it right with water, it was no big deal. It's like, okay, maybe no big deal for you.

Khalila McCoy 29:16

That is not the way I live in my that's not typical where we come from.

Meg Stafford 29:23

Or um, when I was there, one of the papayas was ripe, and so they have a um one guy had a very long um a machete lashed to a very long stick because it was high up. And he gave Gail and her friend Kaya, who um they she was also living there, a huge tarp that they held on to the sides, and he whacked down the papaya and like it fell to the fell into the tarp. It's like, okay, definitely do not do this at all. So uh that was interesting. But she took me to um to this woman's house in the far corner of the um of the village, and she's someone who made uh lunches for a lot of the people who worked in the field, and they would come pick it up. But she like she uh had a donkey in in the yard, and she asked us into the house, and there was a chicken um and a a duck and a kitten like sitting together on an overturned log, and she chewed them off, and the table's a place to sit, and we were chatting, and um like she wished they had a wood-burning stove. That's that's that's what they cooked with, so that's like not something I was used to, but she like turned around and she produced two bowls of gorgeous soup with these huge beans and chunks of banana and bread, and it's like I was overwhelmed. And she said, Um, you do us a great honor by being here, and like I teared up because like I was just honored to be there, and uh I realized that um she was a mom also and had a daughter similar age to mine, and and she asked how where was my husband? How did I like it here? What when was I coming back? And I had the sense that that she understood what it was like to have a daughter, like what it what it must be like for me to have a daughter of this age so far from home. And I realized that she was like there are adults that were there for my daughter. Like, yes, she was helping the village, but they had their eyes out for them also. They would bring them, um, they would bring them some of the crops that they were growing, they would stop in on them, and it really wasn't until that moment that's like I connected with her as a mom and different culture, different uh different living situation, but definitely it was um a place of a place of connection that that just that really touched me. Yeah. That's well one hugely different thing in Nepal um there some what some of the rituals when people are dying, like they have uh they have specific places that they that people essentially have kind of hospice care, but also they have funeral pyres and like our are that's the way that they are dealing with the bodies, and that was something I'd never seen or experienced and felt very very foreign, but it was clearly just um just the way it was there. So um yeah that was that was um fascinating and different. And when we were in Bhutan, they had they have um prayer wheels everywhere because the that country is uh predominantly Buddhist, and like you have to yeah, you you have to turn them and like there can be many in a row, but everybody everybody does. Uh and so it was just fascinating again to see it.

Khalila McCoy 33:33

Yeah. Do you ever find yourself with you know some of the different places that you're going to? Do you ever get a little fearful or nervous when you go to a new place?

Meg Stafford 33:44

Um it can be. Like like anywhere, it it's um it can feel it can feel uncomfortable. It's uh I know that in Nepal they they really prefer that women are like in long pants and are covered, and um it can be uncomfortable if if you're not adhering to that. Uh so it's important to keep that in mind. And um when we first arrived, it was quite warm. Like we had for to to get to the Anaperna base camp, like we were staying in unheated little places, and we had to have a a sleeping bag that was rated to zero degrees. So it's like, okay, it's gonna be cold. Yeah. But in the beginning days, further down, it was warm. I want to say 70s or 80s, but like had to wear long pants anyway because that culture dictated. So it's like, oh, would have loved to have been in shorts. Yes, shorts and a tank top. But there was a time when I was traveling across country when I was 22, and the bus stopped like at five in the morning in Albuquerque, and we had like an hour. I guess the bus was refilling, and we could we could walk around. So I had been on the bus for many hours at that point. I walked around, the sun was just coming up, and there was an um older man leaning in the doorway, and uh he said, Come on back. Oh, you know, the truckers are here, we're having coffee and donuts. Come on in. And I looked at him and and he said, You can do me more harm than I can do you. So really, I don't think it's gonna do any harm. And it's like I looked at him and and realized that he was right. He was he was he looked pretty frail, and I decided to trust him, and I went back and had coffee and donuts with with the guys there. But it was a moment of do I do I do this? Do I as a single young woman is that smart? And I like had to split second decide that um I thought that he seemed genuine. So that was that was fortunate.

Khalila McCoy 36:13

What type of lessons do you feel like you carry now, having had these experiences and stepping out of your comfort zone?

Meg Stafford 36:20

Um that I think it's important for us to step out of our comfort zone in the name of um exploring and connecting with other people and being open to new experiences and um and the the beauty of what's around us. It's it's there's so much to see and so much to learn, and um we can only find it when we go out there. So uh I love being able to take the opportunity and and hope that hope that other people will too, because we certainly can understand each other better the more we're able to see of different places and different cultures and um different excuse me, different challenges that people have and different advantages. It's uh so it's it's there there's just it it just is endless. But you know, it's I know that people who live um near the Arctic Circle like have an entirely different lifestyle. Yes, uh and deal with things and and just like um in Colombia, which much closer to the equator, and so it's not only the heat, but the light is different. It's because anywhere that's closer to the equator will have much closer divided amounts of day and night time, and like and the further north you go, the greater the variation. So um and and swings. So if you are living constantly in um like it's 6 30 and and and 6 30, it like your the people there don't experience late evenings where it stays light. So like your life has to adjust around that, or it's right um and yeah, and the reverse, like we here in the in the northeast um in this this area, um will experience it being light till 8 30 or 9, but people who live further north or like closer to the Arctic Circle, it it's there are times when it's light almost the whole time. And so it it it changes. It brings about a whole different way of living, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's and they the the farmers in Colombia like get up early every day, but it's it's and they're out, but it's light every day. It's it's not like they have to wait until nine o'clock to to get to work.

Khalila McCoy 39:12

It sounds like a lot of your experiences in the places you've gone, it's not like touristy places, is that right? Is it more kind of finding guides and extur excursions?

Meg Stafford 39:24

Yes, I hope so. I'm certainly the these trips, um, I I do I do love seeing like museums and and some of the touristy things, but I really try to to also understand the place and some of the people there. It it's it's always a a treat to meet people who are from there and spend time with people who are from there because you you hear about it and learn about it in in such a different way. So even even the the bike trips, it's um we're interacting with each other a lot, but or like with the people at each of the places that we stay, but it's um there there's only so much you can get in 10 days or you know, or two weeks. But still it is um in in the name of trying to understand it and um be immersed in it as much as possible.

Khalila McCoy 40:24

Do you always journal as you go, or do you find like you have once you get home, you kind of have to sit back and process all of the things you've experienced?

Meg Stafford 40:33

Um both. And it's um and sometimes I forget I forget to note down some of the details because I always think, oh, I'm just gonna remember. But yeah, but you never do. You never do, right? It's so much, right? Um, I have learned uh to at least take pictures. That helps a lot because that as I was writing this book, even looking at pictures would jog my memory and uh and bring back certain moments and the ability to describe things. There there are some things that I like have to write down because it like I have to get it out. Um that's part of the way I have always written their ideas that formulate and I just gotta get them out. And then there are other things that um yeah, that that it's very fleeting.

Khalila McCoy 41:31

Uh yeah, even as someone reading the book, I always liked it when you added the pictures in there, it came, you know, more alive and the little captions you put under it. And it was really cool when you would say, um, I forget the exact wording, but it would it would let you know like this is exactly from like Gail's journal or from Kate's journal, um word for word, or like an email or something like that. So it makes it even come alive for us as a reader. And then, you know, for you yourself, you always get to relive that moment.

Meg Stafford 42:02

It's thank you. It's and it was, and thank you for reminding me to make sure to point out that um part of what was important to me about the book was having both of their voices prominent and just it going back. It was part of my work and my work with my editor to make sure it felt balanced that the different voices.

Khalila McCoy 42:24

It really did. And it was cool because like I said, it'd be excerpts from your journals, but then also then you kind of storytelling in between it and then another piece of the journal. So I thought it kept it flowing, it was very interesting, and then like that extra added detail and emotion that you put into almost the narrative of it was really good. So kudos to you. I really, like I said, I've been enjoying it a lot.

Meg Stafford 42:48

Oh, thanks. I'm glad.

Khalila McCoy 42:50

Yeah.

unknown 42:51

Okay.

Khalila McCoy 42:52

So thinking of the places that you've been, non-touristy, the experience have you had, give us like if I was going on a trip, what would you my your top three suggestions? Oh.

Meg Stafford 43:04

Um, yikes those questions are always so hard for me. I would say um it would really depend on what you're looking for from an experience. It's hard.

Khalila McCoy 43:20

Wait, let's say this. I'm not a hiker or a biker. So sorry about that. But I do want to be learning, I want to meet people, and I want to be fully immersed into the culture.

Meg Stafford 43:32

Um so the first things that come to mind when you say that are it's so my first experiences in France and Italy were not doing hiking or biking or anything, and England also, and like I spent eight months there, and there there's so much there's there's so much beauty in all of those places. Even getting well, not even getting around by train, you can see a lot of them. And the different languages. I love, I love language and I love hearing different language and um having meals in those places, France and Italy. Like you're here, it will be, you know, you're going to be in for a lovely experience. They take dining very seriously. And they want to enjoy it. Like one of the things that I feel like Europe does really well is take their time with things. So there are so many places that will um they really celebrate having meals together and spending the time and not hurrying through it. So they they're really good at setting it setting aside the time and space to do that and just to hang out and be together in a different way than and we do that here also, but they do it all the time there. Like more regularly. More regularly like that is just time with each other is valued uh in a more substantial way. So it's lovely to be able to experience that. Um and uh my husband who had never met some of the friends that I had made in England came with me on a on a trip there we because we went to see our daughter play Frisbee uh from in college and then we were right near Bristol where I had lived for eight months and he just like fell right into it and I could see that it really suited him. So it was um so like any anywhere you go in those places are just gonna be beautiful and filled with interesting architecture and food and people who are interested to talk to you. So yeah okay and then for my adventurous listeners where would you suggest they go um one of the hikes that I did with friends a few years ago was uh called the Tour Mont Blanc and you start and end in Chamonix France and you walk through um Italy and Switzerland you go climbing up uh you you climb up and down each day so you do do a peak and then come down uh but you're you're circumnavigating Mont Blanc and it just is beautiful vistas and you get to be in three different countries. So that was a very a very fun one and any the the biking companies can accommodate different levels of ability so that's my friend as I was thinking I was like they'd be like oh my gosh Khalila hurry up like we're gonna be a daily because of her my friend did a bike across Italy uh and it was a lot of elevation and and it was uh um I didn't do that one with her uh and it was more mileage and my husband and I are gonna be doing this one and it's in a different part of Italy and it is it uh like 30 to 40 miles of of rolling hills not this as steep a hill as she did so and they have some like when we did Amsterdam to Bruges that was largely flat so um and it's and the the bike excursions are and they have so they're all levels but also it's not like okay you're gonna be doing 40 miles like go and see how fast you can get there. It's like your time you're gonna stop somewhere for lunch. Okay okay that seems reasonable yeah you can uh and I like that that's short enough that when we get where we're going we're going we have time to explore the city and walk around and so but there there are lots of great hiking and biking tours probably kayaking other other things other adventures you can do as well we were in Puerto Rico just a a couple of weeks ago and how neat it uh yeah it was really fun to be there and it's only three and a half hours away from here direct flight and but it feels like you're in a whole other place and yeah that was that was a treat also and you said you're going to Italy when is that trip? Um end of May into the beginning of June.

Khalila McCoy 48:56

Okay so how often are you traveling now?

Meg Stafford 48:59

Well now we're traveling a little more often now our daughters are grown and uh my husband is I'm still working um well my three days a week pack a lot into it my husband is is not working full time anymore he's retired from and is uh working two or three days a week so um we're trying a couple times a year to okay to get that place so yeah feels that's exciting to get to this point in our lives to be able to do that now you mentioned earlier a little bit about noticing the different cultures and things like that and the way of life is there anything like from any of the cultures that you've experienced that you've adopted and kind of made part of your life as well I was gonna say I try to slow it down yeah uh that's not something I'm generally very good at. So I definitely an on the go kind of person. But uh definitely try to remember what it's like to be in new places and to for me to make sure that I get up into the mountains and and um and whether it's skiing or hiking or walking or just spending time there it just is something that feels like home. Uh and to remember that it it is different for different people and to to be uh tolerant of the tolerant and appreciative of the differences because we all have different preferences and different ideas about things and um we come from such different backgrounds it's important to remember that. So it's seeing it in action makes it uh really drives it at home. I think having been to um that that first time in France that that I was so fortunate to to be able to do when I was 14 like left and I turned 15 while I was there. It left a deep impression on me uh seeing the buildings that were so old uh and like people just living among that every day but you really feel connected to history and to like people all generations and um uh and it's the I think the mountains do that also because the mountains just feel so old it feels like like people have been on them for centuries and centuries they've been there long before we were here and it just lends a uh the connection to to place and time and the past and like they will be there long after we're gone also.

Khalila McCoy 52:15

Yeah like the the um evolvingness of nature like right the different paces at which we do it I like that the idea of like when we're traveling we're not just connecting to people but a time and a place to history to nature there's so much to focus in on that like you said anybody can connect and then you and I could go on a trip right and connect in different ways and notice different things and come back with a different story.

Meg Stafford 52:47

And um and that's it's fun to hear about like like to when we've spent a day somewhere like what stood out to you what what did what did you like what was uh what was your day like you know having just been skiing even from one day to the next uh one day it was full sun and like 37 degrees and like it was just beautiful and we got warm had to shed layers and this the snow was getting sticky and uh like mushy and hard to move around and then the next day it was the totally gray and colder and it was very um the conditions were much faster and you you had to pay attention in a whole other way so even being in the same place from one day to the next it feels different. So or like different time of year it would feel it would be obviously totally different there in the middle of summer.

Khalila McCoy 53:47

So it is uh it it it just never gets old I do have to ask because I know when you talk about a lot of traveling people will ask this and then you even put it in your book I think it kind of made me laugh um you talked about I can't find it right now but you talked about um wanting to travel but your bank account was like uh I don't know if this is a good choice for you. Oh yeah here it is the only hesitation came from my bank account which tapped me on the shoulder slapped the back of my head and hissed what are you thinking? So that made me laugh because a lot of people think like oh okay well are you wealthy? Like wealthy people get to travel and do all these extra things like nobody who's you know working class or who's like me can go to all these places. So if you don't mind can you share with us like obviously like you said in your book at first there was that trouble with um thinking about where those finances are going to come from is it just you made it a priority how did you fund all these trips?

Meg Stafford 54:46

Yes so in the beginning uh like when I was younger or college and just after it absolutely was a priority and I uh I would I did not uh and still don't have a fancy car um or uh fancy things but I it it was if it if it was travel I would spend it there are other things that I would not um spend money on or I made sure that I lived in a place where it did not take the majority of my money to be there. So it has it it it has meant making choices. And for a lot of years when um when the girls were young it was a priority for me to not to to be home with them some of the time. So to to not be working five days a week that was that was a personal choice. So I I preferred not doing something so that I could be with them um and as time went on and like now they're older and out of college and so we have more money available to us because they've been themselves for more than 10 years. And uh so like we made a priority to be paying down our house so that like so that we would have more available to us. We don't have a second home we don't uh you know it's like it it's still it's travel is a priority but we can't do all the all the things right there was um some things sort of fell together but we had to cancel one thing because it's it was one too many we couldn't afford it and so uh we have to put put things off um or like I I can be an impatient person because when I'm excited about something I want to do it right now I'm the same way yes but I have had to learn that I can maybe do many of the things but not not right now. So yes do I think that word was for me I eventually can get to many of them. Yes so it's uh it some of it was a matter of being patient about it. But also um when we like all those years we would take time off but we would we went to Maine uh so which we could just travel by car. And um we s we went to Appalachian Mountain Club does family camps and so you stay in platform tents and um there's central bathrooms and central dining and they prepare the meals. So it's there are lots of ways to go away that are not super expensive but that are I I cherished our time hiking around Acadia every summer. So there it it's there there are lots of ways to do it that are not you don't have to spend you don't have to stay the expensive places. Right.

Khalila McCoy 58:06

Find still get an amazing experience.

Meg Stafford 58:09

Yeah yeah and it's it's um and it's just as wonderful.

Khalila McCoy 58:16

Yeah.

Meg Stafford 58:16

So the title of your book Who will accompany you why that title um and it's so who will accompany you in the subtitle My Mother Daughter Journeys Far from home and close to the heart so it's actually one of the editors that I worked with um and had read a lot of the material Gail in her uh blog that she wrote about a lot of it because she was literally an accompanier one of them she asked the question you know who will who will accompany you or who will accompany me now that I'm coming home and my editor suggested that that that would make a great title for the book. And I agreed and then uh worked worked on the subtitle to reflect um more um more accurately what the what this particular book was about. But I I mean it as um really who will accompany you in this life? Who is important to you? Who do you want to spend time with? Uh who who do you want to accompany and so um it it it really is about the choices we make and um how we prioritize our time and who we're gonna spend time with what's important. So that's that's where that came from it just it uh I appreciated her suggestion because it it just as soon as she said it's like oh yeah that's yeah it works perfectly on many levels. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 59:58

So you've shared a lot about your travels and about your book.

Meg Stafford 1:00:01

So for our listeners what is something that you hope they take away from either this conversation or from reading your book that can help them rise in their own life I really hope that people are inspired to go someplace new and whether it is close to home or far away and enjoy having an open mind and sharing a new experience with someone and um finding out more about both the person that you have gone with and also the the place that you're going to to see what you to see what you learn. And there there's just so much so much beauty in and out around to take advantage of it make the time and to um go and go and explore and love it.

Khalila McCoy 1:01:01

Yeah thank you for that I really appreciate you sharing about your experiences and your book and like I said it's a great story so I hope other people are rushing to get it and read it as well. Do you have any other book like goals in the future?

Meg Stafford 1:01:18

I have been thinking about that this is my second memoir uh so my first one is called um Topic of Cancer Riding the Waves of the Big Sea and it is about my uh my escapades through breast cancer uh which now started in 2007 so it's been many years uh and that book is um there's a lot of humor in it and so if you don't like puns stay away from that book because there are a lot of there talk about the silly things that happen and the sad things that happen and that's written in real time um as it is as it is happening. So okay and I've been thinking about my next project and one idea I wrote a column for still do sometimes now that goes into my blog um a column for newspapers about different things that were happening in our in my life sometimes about raising kids sometimes about lectureships and often about our animals about things that are happening um experiences that I've had so like just snippets and I have thought about turning that into a book um by by topic it's so okay about the my experiences as social worker and psychotherapist out there I've thought a lot about what makes people tick and and what makes people unique and um interesting. So um that's one thought is to to put them put them together by topic and draw on some of the articles that I've written in the past. I've been writing a more I've been writing reviews of musical performances and art openings and uh like I I I love writing essays of all kinds.

Khalila McCoy 1:03:25

I just wrote one about my dad uh so it's uh if I can combine them that would be that'd be a real treat yeah so that does sound like it would be really good well I wish you luck and that and I hope that you decide to put that together as a book and then we I'll get that one too.

Meg Stafford 1:03:45

Thank you. I really enjoy your writing style so yeah please do it you it has been delightful you have uh asked lots of evocative questions and I um it's as a therapist I ask people a lot of questions so it is interest it's always interesting for me to be on the other side.

Khalila McCoy 1:04:07

Yes I know well my husband says the same thing I ask questions all the time but I like you have the curiosity for people too and I just you know want to know like you said what makes them tick what makes them feel the way they do so I appreciate you answering all my questions and taking the time to share about your experiences.

Meg Stafford 1:04:26

Totally my pleasure it's been really great.

Khalila McCoy 1:04:31

Meg encourages us to make time to go and explore and love it. And I echo those sentiments with my whole heart. As someone who has had the privilege of traveling to several countries and states I've loved stepping outside my regular space and seeing what else is out there. The people, the culture, the food, the scenery, every part tells its own story. Meg talks about slowing down so we can truly appreciate and enjoy the experience. And I like that she reminds us we don't have to leave where we are to do it. DJ and I have talked about taking a family road trip with miles and exploring more of the US and honestly there's so much here in Ohio to enjoy that we really don't have to go that far to have a great experience. Meg reminds us that travel is what we make of it. You can go all the way to Paris and have a terrible time because your mindset is off or you can visit your nearest state park and have the best day of your life. It's all about the adventure you choose and the attitude you bring with you. I asked Meg for some suggestions on where we should travel but now I'm asking you where do you want to go? What do you want to do when you get there? What are you hoping to see, to feel and to learn? Have fun with this question. Pick one place that might be kind of hard to get to that would take some real planning and then pick somewhere close by simple that wouldn't break the bank. Then figure out how do you make both of those a reality? In the show notes you'll find a link to Meg's website where you can order her award-winning book and spend time exploring her blog. I caught up with Meg this week and yes she did go on that trip to Italy. She told me they had a terrific time biking 35 miles a day from Puglia to Matera. Meg, thank you for our conversation and for reminding me of the joy I feel when I am out in the world exploring. Soon I'll share some of my own adventures with you. And to my listening friends thank you again for being here. And as you move through the rest of your day I hope to take a moment to listen a little louder to yourself, to the people you love and to the things that connect us a week we sometimes forget to notice. I'll meet you back here next time. See you bye.