14 | "The Next Best Step" | Living with Intention

In this heartfelt conversation, Khalila McCoy and Debbie Simmons delve into the themes of intentionality and resilience in the face of life's challenges. Debbie shares her personal journey, which includes the profound loss of her quadruplets and the subsequent lessons learned about grief, faith, and the importance of asking the right questions. She emphasizes the shift from asking 'why' to 'how' as a means of navigating difficult times, highlighting the importance of taking actionable steps towards healing and growth.

Debbie discusses the importance of faith in her decision-making process, particularly when it comes to adopting children and running Anchor Point, a nonprofit organization that provides resources for families facing various challenges, including pregnancy and trauma recovery. She shares insights on balancing multiple roles as a CEO, mother, and community leader, emphasizing the need for prioritization and delegation. The conversation wraps up with Debbie encouraging listeners to lean into their passions and trust in God's plan, reminding them that every day is a new opportunity for growth and impact.

Connect with Debbie : 

Book: TheHeartofLegacy.com

Website: TheDebbieSimmons.com

Instagram: @thedebbiesimmons

Connect with this show on Instagram @wherewerisepod

Transcript

Khalila McCoy 0:01

Hi, I'm Khalila McCoy, and you're listening to the podcast designed to help you grow forward. This is where we ride. Today we are talking about intentionality and making choices no matter what life throws at us and making the best, not for only for ourselves, but for the people in our lives that will be here after we're gone. And we have Debbie with us, and Debbie has a great story that she wants to share, and she also helps people with this all the time. So, Debbie, welcome. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah, I'm super glad to be here with you guys. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yes, I like to just tell people I get all these wonderful titles. And so I am a wife. I've married to Scott for 30-something years. I am a mom of nine adopted children and a grandma, or we call me Lolly, for uh 15 grandchildren. And then I, in my free time, I'm a CEO of a large nonprofit here in the Houston, Texas area. And then I also coach and speak and do all kinds of fun things as a legacy architect. And so when you think about like uh everybody has a journey, and we all get to go on our journeys, right? And so mine, uh, I had certain uh preconceived notions as a teenager of how my life would go. And I set out to explore it. And one of the things that I wanted was I had this deep desire to be a young grandma, and I didn't know the journey that it was going to take me on, but in my mind, I'm a girl that gets things done. So I was like, okay, eventually I gotta find a guy, I gotta fall in love, get married, have children, and then you can be a young grandma. And it's, you know, it started out just right. I went to college and um I found the guy, I fell in love, and um we got married. Oh, and I got my college degree, so I didn't leave that off. Um, and that was wonderful. Check, check, check, right? Everything was great. Then life sometimes throws curveballs at us, and we hit um infertility and years of not being able to get pregnant, um, about four or five years, and then ultimately we got pregnant and we were diagnosed with twins, which I thought this is great. Um back on track for young grandma, and I'll just do them two at a time. And uh my body then um started to miscarry. And lo and behold, we found out that we weren't carrying twins, we were carrying quads. And so that's four. Like one, two, three, four. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, and I'm like, what do you do? You know, but it's like, okay, well, back on track to young grandma. I gotta figure out how to get these kids to 30 weeks. Um, and you know, sometimes the fog kind of rolls in and you keep walking forward, and we started doing the right things and trying to figure out our way on how to do all this. And of course, just tons of questions, you know, like how do you handle four? And how do you put four car seats in a car when your car won't hold four car seats and you know, all these things that go through your mind? And around 26 weeks, I found myself standing in water, and that meant that one of the baby sacks had ruptured. So they admitted me to the hospital, and um, I was to stay there as long as I could carry the babies. And the next morning, uh, contractions came crashing in, and um the doctor said, You're gonna have to deliver this one. And I just was like, Can you please just stop this? It's too early. I I don't know how no, no, just stop it. And she looked at me and shook her head no. And so I closed my eyes and I breathed, and I was like, I just gotta figure my way through this. And so they whisked me off into surgery, back into the room to wait. And a little several hours later, little Zach arrived and I held him and I rocked him and I loved him until he drifted off into eternity. Um, that little boy took his finger, wrapped it around my hand, my finger. He took his hand and wrapped it around my finger and squeezed and said, Mom, I'm here. I love you. And uh then, you know, the ro the fog is still there. How do you make your way through this? And it's continuing to rise. And the question then becomes, would my body reject the other boys? And several hours went by. My I got sick and my blood work was a mess, and the doctor walked in and said, You have to induce. And I looked up at her just like, I can no, can you just give me just a sliver of hope? And uh she shook her head no, and um we induced, and several hours later, Josh, Nate, and Chris each arrived on the scenes and they placed them in my arms, and I held them and I rocked them and I loved them until they drifted off into eternity. And I remember that night after this very, very long day. You know, you don't go to the hospital with this plan to need to plan a funeral for one, much less four children. Um, and I was like, God, I don't know how to get through this. I I this is too hard. I don't understand how to get through this. And I learned some very, very valuable lessons in that time. And one of those was that oftentimes when we face difficult situations, our biggest question is why? Why me? Why now? Why then? Why, why, why, why, why? Because if I can just get that answer, then it will it'll make it okay. Yes, and you know, the truth is that I've learned over time is that if someone would have told me the why, even if God himself would have come and told me the why, do you know what my next question would be? Why? Because that's not a good enough answer. I mean, it doesn't bring my voice back, it doesn't solve the thing. And so God just gently encouraged me, you have to lay down the why, you have to give me the why. If you keep asking the why, you are going to stay stuck.

unknown 6:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Because why is very internal and it causes us to protect ourselves. And it's like, if I could just get it, I could go on. Well, it's not gonna satisfy. And so more questions, yes, and so I was like, Okay, God, I'll give you my why. And then I was like, but I don't know how to get through this. I don't know how I'm a fixer, I don't know how. And he was like, ask me a different question, and I was like, What? And um, because I don't have any questions, I just want answers, and he's like, Ask me this question how do I survive? How do I survive? Because asking the how question is very outward focused, it's like it requires action, right? And so this thought of I need to breathe, and this idea of just take the next best step I can think of. Okay. Uh, and so I began to take the next best step I could think of. And then he would show up and meet me, and then I would ask the question again, and I would think of the next best step, and I would take it. And this is how we learn to walk through grief. Okay. Is this one step in the right direction over a long period of time? And so I began that journey. Not every day or every decision was a forward step, but I always came back to the question to learn how to get to the next place and never dropped back to the why, because that would have derailed me again. And I had friends and support and stuff like that that would encourage me to continue moving forward. And so I walked through kind of that grief process. And as I did and I got better and could do more things, I began to be able to help other people. And my question changed. The question then became okay, how do I not only survive, but how do I thrive? Because I didn't want to be a person that was still stuck in my emotions. And uh I wanted desperately to still live. I wanted to be make impact. I wanted to smile, I wanted to laugh, I wanted to have joy. And I'm going, oh my gosh, I was in my 20s, you know, I and I'm 30 plus years older now. What a, you know, it would be bad to be stuck, right? And I'm like, no, I want to live. And so, God, how do I survive this? And when I said, you say that you're a redeemer of stories, so I want to give you my story. You show me how to make something of it, how you want to use it. And that began to give me all kinds of opportunities to work with people, to lead group groups, to go to seminary, to um uh work in full-time ministry, to start a nonprofit. And ultimately it led us to adopting our nine children, uh, and then, you know, these grandkids, and now speaking and writing the book, and all of that comes out of that very difficult place and learning how to ask those questions and that laying down the why, how do I survive, and how do I thrive? I use these questions all the time.

unknown 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

In my CEO job, in my parent job, in my grandparent job, in my, you know, friend job, you know, these are the questions that you always have to learn how to utilize to be able to continue moving forward. And I like to say, you know, uh, be with the boys in the hospital, you know, legacy became very important. Being intentional, uh, eternity mattered. And so I I have just been one that was just like, I gotta, I gotta figure out how to be intentional now, make the impact now, because life is short, so that I can live my legacy now, and I can leave a legacy later. Because we're all gonna leave a legacy. It's just a matter of whether we will craft it or not. And, you know, I think it's pretty cool that I'll be in heaven, anchor point, the ministry will still be here impacting people, and I'll be going, oh, that's so cool. I got to be a part of that, you know. Uh, and I'm like, yeah, you know, so that is my journey. Um, and it's you know, a roller coaster of lots of highs and lots of lows, but it's it speaks to God's faithfulness and it speaks to how he will use us if we will live a life of humility and surrender and let him lead us through the fog. And oftentimes that fog uh is actually our path. And uh we don't always like to embrace that, but uh, I've seen that over and over and over again.

Khalila McCoy 11:31

You speak a lot about your faith in God and trusting him and talking to him. Was this faith, did you already have it when you were going through what you were going through, or was it afterwards?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, so I would say I I became a follower of Jesus Christ when I was young. Okay. But when the rubber hits the road and challenges come, this is the place where we see what our faith is made of and see the character of the person that we have become, those things seem to, you seem to grow a lot when you hit hard things, right? And so I would say this was one of the first losing the boys was one of the first times in my life where I really couldn't control everything. Like I couldn't figure out how to fix it. And so it forced me uh in a wonderful, miserable way to learn that I could really trust him. Um, and so it's I would say it was forged in that time um from that perspective. And how old were you at that time? Uh, that's a great question. I was like 27, 28, somewhere around there.

Khalila McCoy 12:47

How long did it take for you to stop asking the why? You know, you said that you kind of talked with God and you, you know, felt his presence telling you to change the question he was asking you. Did that happen, you know, while you were in the hospital? Did it take a couple months to get to that point? Did someone kind of give you that thought of, you know, talk to God about this differently?

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Uh I was so over. Well, first of all, when you go through a very, very difficult situation, what I find is absolutely amazing is the peace that surrounds that situation. It's almost like time stands still.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Okay. And it it's a it's a very difficult thing to walk through, but it's like surreal. Okay. And life just slowed down. And I will tell you, I've never felt closer to him than through that process. Okay. Um, so that is going on, and I just remember that very night I'm going, I do not know how to do this. I I literally don't even know what to do next. And the only thing I could figure out to do was to put a stake in the ground and go, I'm gonna trust you.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

And teach me what I need to know. Because I I could look, you know, you could look into all kinds of different ways to get through it. And I'm and I'm processing all those in my mind that night. And I'm like, I just don't know how people figure their way if they're not trusting him. And I was like, that's the only thing I know to do. And so I just put a stake in the ground and said, this is the way we're going. I don't know how it's gonna work out, but I don't know any other thing to do. And because this is so past me and my ability to control it. Um and it was, it was if I literally took you through all of the hours and the days that came after that, it is just amazing how much you could see God's hand in the whole process. So I would never wish this type of loss on anyone, right? But I would tell you, it's a sacred space for me to have a walk through. And what I think we forget is that um eternity is forever. And we live in a society where we're going, oh, next year is you know a long way. And it's just gonna be a blink of the eye before I'm reunited with them. And so I go, okay, I can get the eternity picture. And so if that's the case, then you've left me here, then there must be work for me to do an impact to make. And so how can I do that? So I just didn't, I just didn't have I couldn't think of any other thing to trust because I had to trust something. And I knew I wasn't the answer because I was totally like, What in the heck am I doing? I don't know what I'm doing. Uh but I was like, okay, you've been faithful. Your word says you were faithful then and you'll be faithful now, and you'll be faithful in the future. And so I'm gonna I'm gonna put my money on that. And that's that's how that's how I ended up. So really I it was it was interesting. And I think what helped me is that when you're diagnosed with quads at week 13, and every day is a step of faith to get to the next day, and you realize that it's a miracle to carry this many kids day after day after day. You're I'm already processing a lot of things that maybe someone who went to the bed to the hospital and lost a baby um would be more in shock with. I was already realizing, oh my gosh, how fortunate we were to make it to the next day. How fortunate, and so I had a lot of processing time um to as I landed in the situation to go, okay, this is this is the journey. And I I I'd like to change the journey, uh, but um it's the journey. And so I think I was able to land a lot of things in the hospital that night because I had had a lot of processing time. So um from that perspective.

Khalila McCoy 17:01

Was your husband on the same wavelength as you? Were you guys able to talk it out and go through it together? Was it harder for him?

SPEAKER_00 17:09

I think we were all just like in shock when it's all happening. But um, I will tell you this, and as I've worked with people over the years, is um we have to be very uh gracious with each other and uh generous because when we walk through grief, like after we got home, you know, you're shocked the whole time you're in the hospital, you come home, you do the funeral services, you do all those things, and then everybody disappears, right? Okay, and it's just you and him, me and him. And uh what we have to understand is that all of us grieve differently. And most couples end up divorced after losing a child. And it's not because they're no longer compatible, it's be oftentimes because their grief cycle is on a different wavelength. So I may be doing all right, he may be in the pits, and we don't know how to communicate, then we swap, he's doing all right, and I'm in the pits, and he's trying to fix me, and I don't want to be fixed, and you know, and then it becomes you become enemies with each other. Right. And it's all it is is your grief cycles are not in sync. And so this is why you have to have so much grace with each other and realize that you are not each other's enemy, and we have to be able to really just go, I can't handle, I can't handle this now. Don't fix me. Just love me, you know. Um, and helping him understand. And then, you know, your first year, sometimes I would say even your first two years, your first year for sure is full of new experiences because life will never be the same. So once we lost the boys, what was the next thing we faced? Mother's Day. Well, that was a joy. Uh, you know, I'm sitting in a church service and they say, everyone who just had a baby stand up. And I'm like, Do I stand up? Do I not stand up? Yeah, you know, what do I do? I don't have babies here to hold. And I was like, I just looked at my husband, I was like, dude, I can't handle this service. I'm going in the lobby. Like, you can stay in here with your family. I got to go. And uh, you know, and they were very gracious with me and just let me out because I was like, I can't handle it. Um, you know, and then you have Father's Day, and then you have their um day that they should have arrived, and then you have, and your body knows all of this, right? Your body, and so like every April 1st, even now, I can sometimes find myself in a little bit of a funk the week before, and I'll be like, oh, it's my boy's birthday. And it's like that's my body is just going, hey, we still remember. And you know, so I I love the more that we talk about and share our story and everything like that, it takes away the sting of a lot of that. And so um, you know, you started off asking, uh, how do we do? Well, we I'm sure we had moments, but uh learning to understand that we cycle differently in the grief grief process and we deal with it very differently um gives us eyes of grace for each other. And it's it we have we have to be able to do that, and it's hard, but we got to be able to work hard to do that because we didn't we didn't want to end up divorced, right? Uh and he's still my best friend, and we're just we're just struggling differently. Um and we just you know, and that happens all the time. We just had an incident uh this weekend with some of our kids, and he wasn't handling it very well, and I was. And I I was like, when he didn't handle it, well, I was like, dude. So I had to like, you know, go, oh, okay, I need to have grace because his processing is different than mine. This is this is with anyone, right? And with those that those that you love the most, you let down your guard the most with. And so you kind of see to sometimes lose it. So it's very important for us not to see each other as enemies um in this process. So yeah.

Khalila McCoy 21:11

You everything you're sharing is so wise and knowledgeable. Is this hindsight, or like when you were going through it, did you know all this stuff already? Or was it just something looking back, you realize, okay, these were the choices that I made, mostly leaning on my faith, or did you have a knowledge of how to get through grief?

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Uh I would say it was some of both, but I certainly would say I have continued uh to because of the children that we have adopted um have trauma backgrounds. I have I have grown a lot more in my education in how to deal with uh trauma. And so a lot more of this I have and it I've learned as God's given me opportunity to minister with other people too, right? It's like, oh, that's why that made sense then, you know, and stuff like that. You know, like I I will tell you like one thing. You know, we didn't we didn't really know what we were doing, but we knew what we were doing. Okay. So like when we came home from the hospital, um, you know, I knew to keep mementos and markers and things like that because these were my boys, even if nobody else got to really experience them, it's still a significant part of me, right? And so we had nurses in the hospital that took pictures for us. Um, and you know, you have the birth certificates and you got the death certificates and you have all of these mementos. Uh, I have a I have a mother's ring that um has their birthstones on it that I wear as a reminder, you know. And when we got home from the hospital, I told my husband, I was like, I don't know how to com I don't know how to help people walk alongside of us. So I had this brainstorm, and it was, I'm sure it was just the Holy Spirit dumping something in my head, and I said, Let's write a birth and a death announcement and send it to everyone, just like we send our Christmas card letter out. And uh so we wrote this one little page and it was very sweet, and it told about their arrival and it told about them leaving, but we mailed it to everyone, okay? Um, and what that helped us do was figure out how to walk through our grief without everybody like calling and going, Hey, how's the pregnancy going?

Khalila McCoy 23:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

And then I'm going, well, let me drop the bomb on you. You know, uh because they they want to be supportive, but they don't know how to be supportive, right? And so, so we did that. We didn't know what we were doing. I just knew that it would make it easier for people and it would help us figure our way. So we did, I think I had one call that was surprised.

Khalila McCoy 23:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Okay. And then when we did the um, we did a memorial service here in Texas, and then we buried the boys in Mississippi. When we did the memorial service that morning, I woke up and I told my husband, I said, I think I'm supposed to talk. And he's like, You're kidding me. And I'm like, I don't know. I just can't get rid of this feeling that I'm supposed to say something. And he's like, Okay. So when we were talking to the pastor, I said, I think I'm supposed to say something. And he goes, Okay. He goes, when I finish my part, I'll look at you. And if you shake your head, I'll say Debbie wants to say something. If not, I'll keep on going. And I said, Okay. So he goes through the whole service, and I don't even know if I'm really listening because I'm like, I gotta talk. I gotta talk. I gotta talk. I'm like, what am I gonna say? And I'm like, um, and anyway, so he looked at me and I was like, Yeah, I want to talk. And um he was like, Okay, so I got up there and I think I just thanked everybody for coming, but I said, Hey, I want you to know that this is a very hard thing for us. And we, you know, we definitely miss our boys, and we want you to pray for us and stuff like that. But I want you to understand that we totally know where our boys are, and you know, they're in heaven and it bothers me a little bit that they know everything and I'm still here as mom. But I want you to know, I want you to know that this is not a terrible experience. It is very hard. And I said, but I want you to know that I had perfect children, they never talked back, they know all they did was love. And I said, at that point I can say this. I said, and I was a perfect mom. Yeah, I love them and all this stuff, and I said, So, you know, grieve with us, but don't have pity on us because God has been in every moment of this, okay? And then we finished the service. Everybody came up to hug me, you know, at the end or whatever. They're all losing it, and I'm like, you're gonna be okay. Yeah, I'm like, you're okay, you're okay, it's gonna be all right, you know. But they were so moved by that. But I'm going, that's the Holy Spirit in me. That is not me. So, you know, this idea of okay, I can trust him to walk me through this and show me how to get through this um in a way that can be honoring to him, honoring to our loss, and help people walk through this because we all go through hard things. Um, and so I would say I learned a I knew some things, I learned a lot as I went through it, and I've continued to learn as I've had the opportunity to work with people over the years.

Khalila McCoy 26:38

Yes. Now tell us about adopting your nine children, which is a very large number, so I can't wait to hear about how this came to be.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

So about we did attempt to get pregnant again um a little bit after we lost the boys, but it was just too much for me emotionally, physically, um, mentally. I I just was exhausted after years of infertility. And uh, and I just told my husband, I said, I just can't do this. I can't do it right now. And he was very supportive. And so we went on about our lives. Um, God took me out of my engineering career and sent me to seminary and put me to work in the ministry in different ways. Um, and when we when I got out of seminary and we were both working for the first time in our marriage, I looked at him and I said, dude, if we're ever gonna have kids, we got to get serious because life is just sticking on by, or we just are gonna love a lot of people's other kids. But I knew I had this deep love in my heart for children, um, and that God was going to feel that at some point. And I didn't understand how, okay. Um, and so we sat down and I was like, okay, if we're gonna try and get pregnant, you know how long it took us last time. So we got to get this thing rolling. Um, and or would we consider adoption? And so we started talking about it, and I was like, look, we could spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars trying to get pregnant and end up with no children. I said, or we can adopt children that need a home, that are sitting in the foster care system legally free, that need a home, um, and spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars there. Uh so in your way, but we have the children. And so we went through a process of just like, um, you know, what about adoption? Could we do adoption? You know, things like can you love someone that's not your own blood? You know, that's a very common question that uh parents have that are thinking about adoption. And you know, I thought about that and I looked at my husband and I said, you know what? I love you and you ain't got my blood. So God must be able to work this out. And so somehow, and so we just kind of started and we knew we wanted multiple children. We thought four. Um, and I was like, we could get a sibling group and you know, keep on going. And so we just started, we didn't have a clue what we were doing originally. So we just started working our way through the process. Um, and we knew that children were legally free in the system already, which simply means all the parental rights have been terminated and they're just waiting for a home. So we said we did not want to foster, we just wanted to go what they call straight adopt for these children that were already available. And uh we just started putting in our application. And if you remember, I'm a girl that gets things done. So I know, I know the process, I start working it. There's a roadblock, we work around it, and I just did my due diligence and we kept going down the process and um eventually um got to the place where there was a sibling group in Tennessee of five that no, a four that they wanted us to adopt. But um, when I was working with my caseworker, some of the reports said that those children should not be put in the same home together. And we sat and talked about that for a while. And you know, when you when you want children, sometimes you'd be willing to just go, well, that's not a big deal. But we should be very careful. And as she and I talked through it, I was like, if it says this in their case reports, we should not put them together because ultimately we're gonna be the only ones in the end because CPS is gonna leave and you've got a potential danger situation that's already been identified. So we had to say no to those children. That was so hard because you I'm so close, right? I've always got these together. Uh, and so we said no, um, and just said, okay, God, you're gonna show us a way. And then a sibling group of five in Tennessee became available. We were in South Carolina, and these were the first five children that we brought into our house. So we moved in a basketball team. Um they were six, seven, eight, nine, and ten. Oh and they were kind of fun. But just to give you uh just a funny glimpse is um we're kind of setting our ways now. We've been married a long time, right? And you know, we kind of got our systems and we do what we do and all this stuff. And the kids are all there visiting this first week. Um, and the youngest one comes in and he looks up at me, and they had been playing in the backyard because I have the basketball team, so they got all their friends with them, right? Okay, so he comes in and he's looking up at me and he goes, Mom, what's for dinner? And I look at this kid and I'm like, dude, do you ask this every day? And he's like, Yeah. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I am so unprepared because I don't cook. Okay. I'm not a cooker. And so fortunately, I had a master's by now in organizational management. So I began to put systems in place and procedures and all this stuff for us to figure out how to survive and um, you know, systems for laundry and who does this. The first six months we ate on paper plates uh because I just couldn't handle the niche.

Khalila McCoy 32:19

Seven people, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yeah, it's like a radical, you know. The funniest thing was, oh my gosh, do you know how much laundry that is? So I taught the kids, got them three baskets each. They had to sort their laundry when they took it off. I taught them how to wash early. And then I looked at my husband, I said, dude, if these kids can't wash their laundry, you can wash yours too.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

And so we just agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

And so, but I'm like, oh my gosh, seven people dumping shoes everywhere is like a nightmare zone, right? You know, and so we we worked our way through that, and um we really thought the five was it, okay, because that was one more than we had originally wanted, and uh in our eyes, and off we go, life goes on. And um it turns out that I was at a conference um and I was listening to Francis Chan talk, and Francis told the story about this couple in a third world country. He was a paraplegic, and they took children in off the streets, and they had a little hut and they just continued to expand their hut and they put these children in it. And the whole time he's talking, I'm sitting there going, Well, I have more room. I could get more children in my home. And if these people can do it, why wouldn't I be open to this? You know, so while he's talking, and then he says, somewhere in there, he says, How many kids do you think these people have taken in? You know, and I'm going, okay, third world country, 30, 40, or whatever. It was like 90. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And he said, none of us would want to be these people today, but all of us would want to be them when they stand before God and give an account. And here's and they hear him say, good and faithful servant. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm done. And so I called my husband and I said, We're supposed to adopt again. And he was like, I don't want to talk to you, stay at your conference, five is enough. And I'm going, you need to start praying about it because we can actually get up to 14 kids in our home legally. And uh I said, but I think it's I I know, but I said, I think it's just four more. And uh he was like, stay away. And he held out for about six weeks and then said, Okay, we can we can put our application in. And so we put our application in within six months. We had uh two, another sibling group of two, and that gave us an 11, a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18-year-old. So then we were into hormones and driver's ed. That's all we did for well over a decade and a half. Uh and um that we thought that was a very hard to, you know, you you got to think about our family looks like the Geraldo show kind of sometimes. Um but if you have already a blended family, now you get another blended family. We all have trauma in our background, right? We all have issues. It can be very messy, it's very redemptive, but it's very messy and very hard. Um, and it was harder than we thought, but we worked our way through it. And um, then my oldest daughter, um, a couple of years later had a child, and that child looked like that might end up in CPS custody. And I told my husband, you know, we need to turn our application in again so that we're prepared if we need to do anything with that child. Um and he was like, Nope, we're not doing that. And uh I said, I'm just telling you, we're we're supposed to turn it in. I don't know that we're supposed to adopt, but we're supposed to turn it in. And he held out for six months, and I would just keep saying, You need to pray, you need to pray, you need to pray about this. I said, I can't let it go. Um, and finally he said, Okay, we can turn it in. And we thought it was just to be prepared for this grandbaby. Uh this grandbaby did not end up in CPS custody. Um, we did end up with another sibling group of two. Uh and uh and we were introduced to some of the work of Dr. Karen Purvis out of uh TCU with trauma-informed care for children that was just eye-opening to me. And it was so helpful for us as a family, but also for our ministry. Um, and so now we run therapeutic camps in the summer uh for families that have adopted, have children that are struggling and stuff like that. So God used it in a myriad of ways. And when we this is the funny part, when we were about to turn 50 and several of my kids were out of the house and we were getting some extra space. I looked at my husband and I said, Should we adopt again? Because you know, we have this home and we have room and we're not dead yet and we're not broke. Uh, you know, should we should we be willing to do this? And my husband um had matured by then and he said, I need you to pray about it. And I was like, Okay, I'll pray about it. And he was like, You need to pray and ask God whether we should bring additional children in our home or whether we should continue to and expand our ability to invest in people to bring children into their home so that you have a bigger impact. And I was like, Okay, I'll I'll pray about that. So I was praying about it, and in the middle of this 30, 45, 45 days of praying, uh, some of my children totally lost it. Um, and I had to deal with them when I was supposed to be going to a CEO meeting. I had to like not do my CEO job and deal with my children, which I will always do. But it happened like three or four times, and I was like, okay, God. You're telling me, you're telling me I shouldn't bring kids to my home right now. I should build this over here that lasts, you know, a much longer time and can have the bigger impact. And so we I went back to him and I told him, I don't think we're supposed to bring anybody in. And my husband's like, phew, we're good. And not that we won't bring other people in or not open to it, but um we, you know, we seem to land with grandchildren here more often than not that we're dealing with, um, which is a wonderful thing to face. But uh so so far we haven't added anybody else. We'll check back with you in a couple of years and see.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, yeah.

Khalila McCoy 38:50

That's awesome. That's a really cool story. I like how you it seems like you're just always open. I know you're like you said, you have a strong faith and you're just open, God, what do you want me to do? Where should I move next? And like you said, you just kind of make it work after you feel like you've gotten that confirmation and you and your husband worked together through it. How were the kids like? I know you said they had a lot of trauma that they were coming into and then building in, like adding two more here and there. Um, did they get along pretty well with each other?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Uh well, we had the standard things like uh you ain't my sibling, and I'm like, yes, they are. And I'm like, we're gonna love each other. We might not like each other. And did I have, you know, did I have fights and did I have quarrels and was there territorial stuff? Yes, but you just you just have to fight for family. And so you have to do that anyway in a biological home. But you know, this is even you know harder. And we have to understand that they're all bringing their stuff and we got their stuff to work on, but my house is going to be a safe place. We're going to figure this out. And so um we, you know, we worked through all that. It's interesting. They uh they all pretty much are all still, you know, the oldest is um he is 33 this year, and the youngest is 21. Um, and they all still kind of stay in touch with each other and and even across sibling groups. It's very interesting. Uh and so they um they are all learning and growing. Uh and some are doing better than others, but um, you know, oftentimes kids with a a trauma background when you move into adulthood can get into very risky situations that we've had to walk through over the years. Um, but um God's still writing a good story with them. Um and you know, I would say the harder time, it was hard when they were in the home, but the harder time is this adult phase until we really under hit bottom and love ourselves the way Jesus loves us and is willing to walk that out. It's harder to it's really hard. Um and so God, you know, God just taught me early on. I don't think I'm any any great giant. All I know is is that I can trust God and I can't, if I spend my time looking back, I will pick up regret and shame and all this stuff, and I can't do anything about that. Okay. And if I look too far in the future, I get anxiety and worry and all this stuff. And so God says, keep my eye on him, stay in the present, trust him. And so literally, I've just gotten really good at going, okay, dad, you got this because I ain't got a clue what I'm doing. And so you show me how uh, you know, you need to give me a download because I got to figure my way and I don't know what I'm doing. And uh he's just been so what I would say is he's been so faithful over the years, you know. That process of asking, how do I survive and taking the next best step? When I do that, he shows up. Okay. I do it again, he shows up. This is how your faith muscle is built, and faith is a muscle, and so it has to be worked. And so I did, I had a staff member that's been with me about a year, and she goes, You seem to hold so lightly to things. And I'm going, I just figured out I can't control anything. I can't control it. Why worry? Yeah, and so if I clasp down on it, then that means I am depending on me more than I'm depending on him, right? And so he says, You and I can have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. And I'm going, I don't have peace, patience, joy.

unknown 42:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

They're not coming on right now. So that means I'm depending on me, not on him. And so he and I would tell you that God gives you children so that you and I or puts us in situations so that you and I can learn to reflect him more. Children are wonderful locators of woundedness in me that needs to be dealt with. So when they lose it and then I erupt, that just means there is something in me that's getting lit up. And God gave me nine children because I must have had a lot to work on because I'm like, ding, off I go, and like, okay, God, I need healing there. And so I've just tried to be very proactive at working when I'm losing it and going, okay, God, I I want to reflect you well. And so if there's something in me, help me figure out how to get healing there so that I can be fully present for these kids. Because if I'm not fully present for them, then how in the world can I help them walk through their stuff? Because we can't take people. Where we've never been willing to go. And so I've done a lot of work with nine children. I'm like, okay, check that one, check that one, check that one. So that is that has been the teacher. Uh life has been the teacher of learning to grow that faith muscle and not hold tightly to things.

Khalila McCoy 44:18

Now you said the youngest is 21. Are they all out of the house now then? As of December 26th.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Oh, okay. I mean, we're going through a new phase now where we literally looked at each other and went, oh my gosh, what do we do now? And I know we ask you.

Khalila McCoy 44:36

So what is the next best next best step right now?

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah. Well, we had we had to really stop and go, okay, we need to recalibrate ourselves around each other because we're still friends and we still love each other and we still want to do this next season. But I mean, it's like, okay, we need we need to be very intentional. And so we've worked, we had to have some hard conversations because we just were settled in our ways. And I'm like, and and my husband was the one who initiated them because he was like, you're just not giving me enough attention. And I'm like, okay, you know, you need attention. I, you know, we've been so busy that we haven't. So we just started recalibrating and we're still learning, obviously. Uh, and we both have our stuff and we're still growing. Um, but uh, you know, we're very committed to figure out how to make this next season good. And we and we still have, I go, we still have a lot of impact to do. So, you know, a lot of the speaking that I do and the writing and and trying to lay a bigger foundation and bring other people along. There is opportunity for him to coach within that um and things. So that's gonna be our next kind of phase. And, you know, anchor point, we are structuring it so that it can live without its founder one day, um, even though I'm not going anywhere right now. But we want it to be able to sustain itself um long term because at some point I get too old to do things, right? And uh and so it is we're setting that up, and then we are expanding uh the opportunity to influence and lead people. And I love to get to work. What I love to do now is I love to work with people who in their heads are are well not in their heads, but are in real life successful. Okay. So they may be a successful entrepreneur, successful CEO, nonprofit leader, whatever it is. And what they're beginning to sense is that is this all there is? Or is there something more? Um, and those are the people that I love to sit down with and go, okay, let's get some clarity because what's happening is uh you are being prepared for more. And so what you're doing is wonderful, and you may not have to change what you're doing, but you're getting this opportunity to have this bigger influence, and that's why inside you've got this friction. But what happens is people like me, we don't always stop to get that clarity and reset that we need. We just go, okay, well, I need to reach the next goal or do the next thing or whatever. So we're busy and we don't slow down. And really, that little bit of friction that you're feeling is actually probably the unique thing that God's called you to impact the world with. And so I like to sit down with leaders like that who are by all means successful, but they're going, I don't know why I feel this way. And I'm like, let's figure it out because it's worth figuring out. And it may mean go back, you do the same job, you do it, you just do it from a different passion. Um, and or it may be, hey, you go like God did with me and say, start a nonprofit. And I'm like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but okay. Uh, you know, and you know, but I love to help people who are sitting there trying to figure that out. And the thing is, is most of us as successful leaders don't voice those things. And the reason is is because most people expect us to have it together. And you you by all means in the world, you look successful. Why would you be dis you know, have this discontent kind of coming up? Um, and so we don't stop. And so I'm going, no, don't miss it. Because if you miss it, you can keep doing your life, but you won't live your legacy. Um, so that's where that's what we get to do now. And I think my husband's gonna play a bigger role in that as we continue to go. Uh and uh because he is just a great man of God and has a lot of wisdom that can coach from that perspective.

Khalila McCoy 48:59

So now is is that separate from Anchor Point?

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Yeah, so that's under my Debbie Simmons brand um and the coaching that we do there um and the speaking and things like that. So yeah, so I do both of these things at the same time. And the wonderful thing is as I speak and do things, it also brings awareness for Anchor Point. So it brings new people to come alongside of us in making an impact in the lives of families. Um, so we're very blessed that it does that. So tell us more about what Anchor Point offers. Sure. Anchor Point is a nonprofit that we like to say gives families hope. So it like lifts the tide of parenting so that our communities are stronger. But um, we start with um individuals who maybe find themselves in a pregnancy and they don't know what to do. Uh, I don't know about you, but most of us didn't get a handbook for our kids. Uh it was the handbook, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so they're overwhelmed or they're just concerned. So we have a medical clinic that will work them. We also move them, uh, baby mom and baby dad, into kind of case management where we work with them to kind of figure out what their big issues are and how they need to go about the world. We have a maternity home that uh works with uh homeless girls who find themselves pregnant. And then also we have our community initiatives where we are coaching and teaching and educating the public in general about how to be a better parent so that we can all move forward together. And then we run recovery groups for people who have struggled with um sexual abuse or trauma or abortion. Um, and they're trying to work through those things. And then we run those therapeutic camps for families uh that have children that grow in, I just don't know what to do with them. I'm like, this is for you. So that's what we get to do on a day-to-day basis, and it literally has the you know, ability to impact thousands of people each year. Um and it's a privilege to walk along.

Khalila McCoy 51:00

It's across the United States then. You don't have to look at the city.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

No, we are mostly we are mostly we are mostly centered in the Houston geographic area of Houston, Texas. We do for camps and stuff like that. We have people that fly in for those things because our camp in the summer is just a wonderful, wonderful way to help the family learn how to walk together and not just see each other kind of as the enemy.

Khalila McCoy 51:26

So that's important. So at the beginning, I was kind of laughing when you were explaining like a little bit about yourself and your life. And you're like, yeah, in my free time, I'm a CEO. You don't normally hear people say, That's my free time thing. How do you manage the coaching, being the CEO, being a mom of dying, being a wife, doing the things that you love just for yourself for free? And I know I've talked to um to other people before. We talked about like that work-life balance really isn't a thing. It's setting priorities and non-negotiables. So, what are yours for managing all the multiple hats that you wear?

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yeah, it's uh breathe and figure out what the next best step is. Okay. Um, but I, you know, I, you know, of course I plan my day and I do everything. But one of the things that I'm really good at is literally going, okay, God, here's my plans. I liter, I mean, I literally had to learn, like, I'm gonna open my hands and go, they're yours.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Now you make of my day what you want. And it does a, it does a really fascinating thing for me, is um, you know, I would usually get upset if someone interrupted my schedule. Um, but when I give it to God and I say, okay, God, you make of it what you want and you help me get the things done that I need to get done and help me prioritize things and all this stuff. When I get it, when I get uh an interruption, now I learn to go, okay, God, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

What are we doing? I'm much more sensitive to that he may be at work in this disruption of what I plan for my day. Okay. So I can be much more attuned to that type of thing. And I'm like, okay, I know I have this big long list, um, and I've prioritized it. And if I only get one or two done, then that's okay. So for me, one of the most important things that I teach my staff to do, and also myself is hey, our job is to always work our way out of our job. Okay. Meaning, how do I delegate things that I don't need to do and only do the things that I can do? Um, or how do I uh, you know, empower volunteers, whatever there, because there's always more to do. There's more impacts we could make, there's more people that we could serve, there's more money I could go raise, whatever it is. Um, but it like for instance, as CEO, if I'm signing the timesheets, you know, and reviewing all those, that's taking my time. I don't need to be doing that. Someone else can do that, right? So am I am I ruthless in looking at my schedule and going, these are things that other people can be empowered to do.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

And and being like, and you know, you got to go through the whole thing of, well, can they really do it as well as me? Or you know, to the quality that I like. And you know what? In that process, God unearths some issues with me that I need to lay down, right? And that he needs to be able to do that. Yes, and or you know, this just this over-mothering or over-responsive. I don't want it to be too hard for them. No, they need to be able to do the timesheets, which that's a very easy one. But I was still reviewing those and I'm like going, why am I doing this? And you know, it keeps me from doing the other important things that only I can do. So if we look at only I can do, then everything else we need to make a plan for. And you know, that will get us out of a rut a lot of time and prioritize your schedule for what's really important. And then you go, okay, as a mom, same type of thing. What do I need to be doing? What do I not need to be doing? Grandkids need to do, what do I not need to do? Um, you know, when you know, how do for me the biggest lesson that I've learned over the last five years is elevating a need to take care of myself because I give, give, give, give, give. I ended up about five years ago uh closing a truck door on my leg and it dug a big hole in my leg and it was nasty, and it ultimately got infected, and doctors couldn't heal it. They were gonna put me in the hospital, and I had a nutritionist that helped me figure out how to get it healed. But we're talking about uh basically nine plus a month of trying to get that healed. Um, and what it taught me after I kind of got it like under control, and I still I still battle some issues from it, even now five years later. But what it taught me was I looked at the nutritionist and I said, there must be something I need to learn here. You know, it's probably not a good idea to live my life on Cokes and not eat and have a high stress life, right? And I'm like, but I didn't, for whatever reason, I didn't know. I just did what I needed to do to figure out how to survive, and I figured out how to survive, and I'm going along, but my body could not heal itself because it didn't have what it needed to be able to go down there and fix the leg.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

It basically said, I'm keeping you alive, keeping your heart pumping and everything, and it's okay if you lose your leg. And I was like, okay, something's gotta change. Yes, right. And so what I encourage people, and we don't understand how much stress is affecting us. And I remember uh telling this nutritionist, he asked me, you know, what's your stress level on a scale of zero to ten? And I was like, 10 being worse, zero being none. And I was like, ah, it's a good week. I'm a three. And he was like, You are lying. And I'm like, I'm not lying. And he said, Yes, you are. You can't if anybody that looks at you knows your life's not a three. And I'm like, but the problem, but the problem was I really didn't know.

Khalila McCoy 57:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Okay, I had lived in it so long that this is normal.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

And I when we taught my body how to be aware of stress and how it's affecting me and learning to listen to it, when I got my body to calm down, I was like, I need to go hibernate for like six months because I'm like, no breasts, you know. And so I just had not taken care of myself.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Um, and it was not knowing how. And so for the last four years, I've been on a journey to try and understand like nutritionally what I need to do for my body, physically, what I need to do for my body. I've been very good spiritually and mentally, um, but still, you know, when stress comes, because it's going to come on the outside, but I also have internal stress. How do I figure out how to work my way through that? So God's really taught me, and this nutritionist has taught me. Um, and I, because I'm going, that wound could have killed me, probably should have killed me. Um, and I would miss out on being young grandma, and I would miss out on impact that I want to be able to make. And so I think, you know, the sooner that we can become wise to how much that affects us, uh, then we can make key changes, and they're not always heart changes, but we can make key changes that will radically help us get our bodies in the best shape to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. Um, and you know, when I take, I'm like, oh my gosh, my temple is in bad shape. And I gotta get the so for me, it's been trying to get those things in line so that I have the capacity to be able to do the things I'm called to do and the additional things that God may allow on my plate. I'm wise to get things off of my plate that shouldn't be there and empower people and encourage them and do more governance at anchor points in day-to-day ministry, and then expand over here and do the things that he wants me to do over here and be the mom and the grandma and all that stuff. But it requires quite a juggling act and then learning how to prioritize. Like you said, what are the absolute, you know, it's really weird. Spend time in the morning doing a quiet time and you spend more time than you probably should, but it somehow works out right when you do that. Yeah, if I were to cut it short, it wouldn't have worked out right, right? You know, and I'm like, okay, are you sure, God? I really feel like I should do it some other things. And he's like, No, you need to fix this in you first. I'm like, okay. And so it works out, and um, I can trust him to do that. And so I think, you know, learning that trust early in him and literally being okay, going, okay, God. I mean, because I have staff members come in my office, they'll be freaking out. And I'm like, I need you to breathe. We're gonna figure out what the next step is, and it's all gonna work out. And they're like, how's it gonna work out? And I said, I don't know, but I know the one that does. And so we're gonna trust that he is gonna show us how to figure our way through this. And um, he has been faithful every time. It doesn't always look the way that we think it should. You know, my grandparent journey did not look the way I thought it should, um, or the way it should have rolled out, but I became something much better. And I, you know, still ultimately got the grandchildren, and I inherit everybody else's grandchildren that doesn't have grandparents close by. I'm like, you need a lolly? I'm available. So I get to do that uh all the time too. So that has been a blessing to other families, and it blesses us um in being able to do that too. So that's how I try and balance it. Um, and then does it get out of whack? Yeah, sure. Um but uh you you need to make adjustments, right? And who do I have into my life that will go, uh you're really kind of over the edge there. You need to think through this. And so who are my safe people that will bravely tell me how to figure my way to the next level, right?

unknown 1:01:58

From that perspective.

Khalila McCoy 1:01:59

So tell us real quick, one of the your favorite things about being young, grandma.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Uh I I love to play and I love I love when the kids just love being with you and you know they keep you young because they just they don't have this is the way God's designed it. They don't have a care in the world. Yes. They just live like my little one of my little three-year-olds was over here the other day, and he just happy, and I'm like, you don't even know where your food's coming from. You can't, you're not out of your diaper children. And yeah, and he's just like, life's good, and I know you're gonna take care of me. And I'm like, okay, and he and he's not afraid to do risky things, so climbing the stairs. He doesn't he don't know how he's gonna get down, but he's like, it's good, I got this, and I'm like, you are crazy. Um, and you know, and so I just go, they are such a joy for uh for me to be able to remember that life doesn't have to be as heavy as it sometimes seems. Um, and so I just like to play uh and hang out with them. So that's yeah, I enjoy it. I love it. That's awesome.

Khalila McCoy 1:03:23

That'll definitely keep you young too. Yeah, yeah. All that energy shared with you. Uh-huh. So you've shared so much today about yourself, about how you support others, and then building that legacy. So, what of all of that, if our listeners just take away one thing from your story today, what is something that you will hope hope rises in them from hearing what you've shared? Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Uh, I would think if you were sitting here listening today, one of the things that I would hope you would walk away with is one that the sun always comes up tomorrow. And tomorrow is a new day. And lean in to what God is calling you to, what you feel in your spirit that he is calling you to. And it may be uh totally different than anything you've ever thought about, but just ask him, he will show you the way. But that is where your true passion, your true fulfillment, where significance is found. And so you have to keep leaning into that. But no, if it's a challenging day, the sun comes up tomorrow. And uh we can keep on going, but um, it is not over. Uh we still have more to do, and so I just encourage you to lean in and be the people that he's called us to be. Yes, that's great.

Khalila McCoy 1:04:48

I like that a lot. Thank you. You're welcome. I also want to make sure we mention that you have a book that's out, and there's something really cool about your book. It's free. So tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Yes. So my book is called The Heart of Legacy: Living a Focused, Faithful, and Fearless Life. Okay. Because that's what this leaning in is about. And so uh you can get the book. You can just go to theheartoflegacy.com and it's totally free. Just put your stuff in and then it will work with you to get the book to you. And you have it. It's a great place to start um to figure out where that little uh I don't know what to do. It's a wonderful thing. You get to hear my whole story in regards to how anchor point started and kind of how God worked all that out. And then at the end, the back end of it is um stories of life change that have happened through Anchor Point, which is super cool to see how God has worked that. But the center section is nothing but practical application to help you figure your way. So it's a wonderful way to figure out. What's next? Uh and how do I do it? And so that's why I do it as a gift because I want everybody to be on that track and figuring their way.

Khalila McCoy 1:06:09

That's great. Is there another place people can find you, like on social media?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

Yeah. So I would say, hey, if you want to get all the social media stuff on me, you just go to thedebbie simmons.com and it'll all be there with the I don't know what they have me doing. Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok. I don't know what all I do. Uh so that's the place that you can find. And you can, you know, if anyone is in those categories of people that like to lean in and do some of the coaching, there's opportunities for that too. And so that's all there.

Khalila McCoy 1:06:42

Great. And we'll link all that in the show notes as well. Well, Debbie, once again, I want to thank you for your time and your inspirational story. I loved everything that you had to say. And I really appreciate how in every aspect and every section of your life, you always talk about, okay, this is something that I'm learning. This is something that I'm growing in. So it wasn't like, oh, I got to this stage and I felt like I knew what I was doing, or I got to the next stage, and oh yeah, I have so much wisdom. I can just use that, right? You were like, okay, well, I'll take what I have, but what else can I learn? And what else can I, you know, learn from other people or read about and figure out? And I think that's so important that we're always learning and growing, and we don't stop that. And we're always looking for that knowledge and looking for that improv improvement in our lives. So I found that very inspirational. And I feel like I can definitely take that into my own life and looking for the positive and talking to God more about what is. I like that phrase you use, the next best step.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

Yeah, yeah. I I would say, hey, always growing, always growing.

Khalila McCoy 1:07:45

There's always more to grow in. All right. Well, thank you. And we will keep in touch and see what your next best step ends up being.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 1:07:56

There was so much wisdom in what Debbie shared today that I already know I need to go back, listen again, and sit with everything that I learned. She walked us through a season of unimaginable loss, yet her story shines with resilience, faith, and the power of intentionality. Debbie's journey reminds us that even in those dark moments, there is still a path forward. For me, there were four things that easily stood out. First, Debbie's faith was unmistakable. When life was heavy or decisions felt overwhelming, she chose to pray, to trust God, and to move in intention. As you think about your own faith or core beliefs, what keeps you grounded and guided as you move through life? Second, I really liked when she spoke about grace, the grace she received, the grace she extended, and the grace she asked for. How often do we forget how essential grace is, both for ourselves and for others? Third, the next best step. Debbie and I talked about this after recording, and it's a phrase that inspired the episode title. Life is tough. Life will knock you down. Even the good things can be hard to navigate. But the idea of simply taking the next best step feels so freeing. It's intentional, thoughtful, and it doesn't demand perfection. It reminds us that this step isn't the final one, it's just the next one. And we keep moving and we keep rising. Lastly, I love that Debbie had a dream of being young grandma. I've heard many dreams in my life, but that one was new and I adored it. It's such a specific personal dream, and it makes me think of how many of us carry unique desires that we feel are out of reach. Sometimes we think the moment has passed us by, but I hope that you hold on to your own beautiful, unique dream. And if the original one truly can't happen anymore, dream a new dream. Move towards it with intentionality, and I believe you'll get there. All right, y'all. I want to thank Debbie once again for adding her voice to this podcast and giving us so much to think about. Make sure you take some time to let this episode soak in and reflect on what your big takeaways were. And as you move through the rest of your day, I hope you take a moment to listen a little louder to yourself, to the people you love, and to the things that connect us in ways we sometimes forget to notice. I'll meet you back here next time. See you bye.