11 | "The Stories We Tell... Matter" | Growing from Pain

In this heartfelt episode, Ann Harikeerthan shares her inspiring journey of navigating chronic pain, autoimmune challenges, and the transformative power of storytelling and community. Her story highlights the importance of reframing suffering, self-care, and the healing found in creative expression.

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Transcript

Khalila McCoy 0:01

Hey, I'm Khalila McCoy, and you're listening to the podcast that helps you see the power in your own story. This is where we ride. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining me this week. Sharing new voices and new stories with you is one of my favorite things to do. Today, I would like to introduce you to Ann. Ann is a beautiful person, and I truly enjoyed our conversation. Her story reminded me just how layered life can be. Ann lives with chronic pain and illness, and it affects every part of her world. Her job, her relationships, the food she can eat, how she's viewed within her culture, and so much more. By sharing her story, she reminds us of the importance of empathy, of slowing down enough to really see one another, and of staying true to ourselves no matter what we're navigating. Her honesty is a powerful reminder that everyone carries something, but we can choose to see ourselves as storytellers, shaping meaning, direction, and purpose as we go. Let's listen. Hi Ann, how are you?

Ann Harikeerthan 1:17

Hi, I'm well. Thank you for having me.

Khalila McCoy 1:21

So for all of our listeners, Ann is actually in India, and we found out. Well, I found out she already knew, but I found out when we were scheduling her recording that it's actually morning there. So you are it's Saturday morning for you. And you said it's eight o'clock in the morning?

Ann Harikeerthan 1:40

Yeah, it's 8 a.m.

Khalila McCoy 1:42

Okay. So she got up early. So thank you so much. And it's 9 30 for me here on Friday night. So you're my first international guest. So I'm super excited to have you. And I'm super excited to talk to you. It means so much that you would, like I said, get up early just to get on and share your story with I like to say the world, but you know, our listeners. The world, yeah. Yeah, right. We're gonna, we're gonna speak it out there. The whole world's gonna be listening to this.

Ann Harikeerthan 2:12

Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 2:13

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Ann Harikeerthan 2:16

Okay, I'm Ann Harikeerthan. I'm a writer from India. Um, I actually wanted to be a writer from the time I was really young, but um my community and family told me to pursue medicine instead. So I joined um medical school, and then I became a doctor, and I found that it was a space that was changing me um for the worse. It was making me less empathic. And I also noticed that I stopped writing. So I took a decision um when I was three years into being a practicing doctor that I'm going to leave practice so that I can write. Um and I write about themes that are related to what I studied. So I write about suffering and about healing. And um I also come from a faith tradition, so I do talk about faith and how it relates to suffering. And that's about me. Um, I live here with my husband and I have a cat. Uh-huh. What's your cat's name? My cat's name is Kumbli. It means blanket Okay.

Khalila McCoy 3:33

Ah, that's cute. I like that. Is it Kumbli? Yes, Kumbly. Nice. That's pretty. I like that. Well, it's interesting that you're gonna talk a little bit about pain today. Um, your own kind of journey with pain and just learning how to be kind to yourself, and then you have a message of encouraging people to show empathy as well. So go ahead and kind of tell us what are you working through right now.

Ann Harikeerthan 4:05

So there are a couple of different kinds of things that I'm working through at the moment. So um when I was a teenager, we found that I I have migraine. And um I think when I was a little older, when I just left clinical practice to become a writer, the migraine intensity increased a lot. It was also the time when I was processing a lot of trauma from um the time when I was in medicine and the time when I was a child. So with all of that, I think that my body really couldn't handle it. So the migraine episodes just became so many, so frequent that I couldn't work for a very long time. Um but more recently, in addition to this uh issue of migraine, we also found that I have an autoimmune condition. And there is a story behind how we discovered that, which I'll tell you in a bit. Um but it just means that during the winters, a lot of my symptoms get worse. It means that I can't always do the things that I want to, but I need to slow down to allow my body the space to catch up and rest. Um It is a little difficult, it is an adjustment, but I feel that it is it's something worth adjusting to, in that if I am able to take care of my body, then my body is able to take care of me and allow me to do the things that I want to.

Khalila McCoy 5:47

You said with the migraines, that started when you were younger. How were how did that come about finding out that it was migraines that you were having versus just a headache here and there?

Ann Harikeerthan 6:01

So when I was a child, um what I noticed was that uh there were a lot of foods that I didn't like. Um and a lot of foods would give me tummy aches. Uh, but I didn't know what it was or how to explain it to anybody. Much later we found out I mean I found out that um migraine in really young children presents with abdominal pain. Okay. It's called abdominal migraine. Um but when I was a teenager, one evening I just came back from school and I had this pain on one side of my head, and I I could hear this really loud buzzing sound, like like there were crickets outside um the window. And it was just so intense. I didn't know what to do, so I just switched off the lights and tried to sleep, but I couldn't sleep. And um my brother came back home after his school and he said, you know, he was really surprised because I usually watch TV or uh do something else after coming back from school. But he was like, How come all the lights are off? And I just I shushed him. It's like shh, it's hurting a lot. And um so he asked me about you know the the pain and what was going on. He was also in school at this point, but he was you know preparing for medical school. And um I remember telling him, There are these crickets, they're really annoying and they're really loud. And my brother was like, I don't hear anything. So that's when we realized that it was not just a headache, there was something else as well. And then um later when I was in medical school, um the intensity of the pain and the frequency of the migraines increased. Initially, we didn't really know what it was. Um we knew that it was not just a headache, but we weren't very clear on what it what exactly the diagnosis was. Um but over time I began to notice that uh there were other symptoms that didn't fit into a typical headache, but it had to be something more. Uh one of it was that sometimes my visual field would look really funny. So it would look as if um everything that I'm looking at is zooming in and out. Or it would feel like the room is just beginning to spin. Um, or sometimes I would have tingling on my face or numbness on one side of my body.

Khalila McCoy 8:46

How did you handle that in those moments? Did you get nervous? Were you scared?

Ann Harikeerthan 8:51

Yeah, I was so scared. The first time it happened, I had no idea, you know, and um I didn't know that a lot of my triggers were dietary. So, in fact, the first time that I had this pulsating feeling, you know, like the uh visual feel was just zooming in and out. I had just eaten something in a in a restaurant, and it was this dish that that I really like. And I came outside and these symptoms started, and I was so sure I was poisoned because I don't know what this is. Yeah. This is just not typical.

Khalila McCoy 9:26

Um so you were able to eat that food before and had no problem, then all of a sudden food started triggering you.

Ann Harikeerthan 9:33

I think it was more that I was eating the food and then developing the symptoms, but not realizing that it was the food that was causing the symptoms.

Khalila McCoy 9:44

Okay.

Ann Harikeerthan 9:44

Um I found out about the food much later when um one of my professors in college said that it's a good idea to keep a migraine journal. So I very meticulously wrote down everything that I was eating. And I don't mean like the name of the dish, but every ingredient that went into the dish.

Khalila McCoy 10:10

And I know in Indian foods you use a lot of spices. I'm sure your list was very long.

Ann Harikeerthan 10:16

It was so long, it was like a page or longer. Yeah. Um and so on one side I would put down all of the ingredients, and on the other side I would put down the time when a symptom began. And that's when I began to that's how I began to notice the correlation. And I found that there were specific foods um that caused the migraine. And one of them is bell peppers. Um and at that point it was one of my favorite foods. So I had to give it up.

Khalila McCoy 10:53

Did you find it hard? Like I know you just said one of them is bell peppers, but were there other ingredients that would trigger you that were very common in the food that you were eating?

Ann Harikeerthan 11:03

Yes. So um, after we found out that I couldn't have bell peppers and I stopped having it, I noticed that I was also getting migraine, but not as intense, with um chili peppers. So I had to stop consuming chili, which is very difficult in the Indian context because all our food has chilies. Um and another really important spice in India that I can't have is cumin. And cumin again is something that we use in all of our curries. It's there in almost every Indian dish. So it was quite difficult to give that up. Um but funnyly, what was more difficult than giving it up was convincing people that these are things that can trigger migraine.

Khalila McCoy 11:57

So people weren't believing you?

Ann Harikeerthan 12:00

No, because in the in the Indian tradition, cumin is part of a healing. I mean, it's thought to be a healing ingredient. Okay. That's one of the reasons why they use it in cooking, because they feel that, you know, it reduces um bloating, it reduces gastric kind of issues, and it just helps them.

Khalila McCoy 12:24

Right. So you have something that's supposed to make you well, and you're like, no, it's actually making you sick.

Ann Harikeerthan 12:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 12:30

I can see that being really hard.

Ann Harikeerthan 12:32

Yeah. My dad would often say, you know, no, this is a healing food. How can it cause any for you? Like just us to know what to say.

Khalila McCoy 12:42

What was it like for you trying to like avoid those meals and like I said, convincing people, were you upset at first that people weren't believing you, that they would till still try to get you to eat it? Or were you kind of just like understanding that, you know, this is rare, so they don't get it?

Ann Harikeerthan 12:58

It was quite difficult in in the beginning, to be honest. Um, very often people would say that, you know, it's just psychological. Um, and that would hurt me because a lot of the foods that I came up on were things that I like. So I was like, why would I, you know, why would my mind just be like, you can't have like I'm not making this up. Yeah. Um so that was that was one thing that really bothered me. But actually another thing that really bothered me was um that the the church that I was going to at that time, um, they they used to have meals together after services, which was very nice. Um but I explained to them that you know I have these dietary restrictions, and then sometimes they would make food uh which had some of these ingredients, and then they would say, you know, just just pray and eat and you'll be okay. If you have a migraine, it means that you don't have enough faith. And I was like, oh no. That just I think that hurt more. Um it's not easy when people don't take your illnesses seriously.

Khalila McCoy 14:16

Did you believe that? Like, oh no, I don't have enough faith.

Ann Harikeerthan 14:20

No, I did not believe that. Okay. Because I had been a while that you know that it would just go away, but it didn't. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 14:31

So it took a long time for you to figure out those triggers and for you to figure out what you had to change when you started noticing that it was certain foods and you started letting go of those. Did the migraines go away?

Ann Harikeerthan 14:44

Yeah. So um before I found out what my triggers were, I was getting episodes almost every other day. And uh I remember when I was uh maintaining this journal of uh the triggers and the migraine episodes. That's when I found out that two-thirds of my month I was I was I was in a lot of pain or I had other symptoms. Um one of the symptoms that I didn't mention was is is a symptom called brain fog. It's when you really can't focus on anything. So in addition to the pain, some of the days I just couldn't focus, which meant that I couldn't write. And I just switched to careers at that point, so it was it was really upsetting me. But once I found out what the triggers were and I cut them out of my diet, I found that the symptoms reduced significantly. So I had only four or five episodes in a month. But now I just get one, and that's usually around the time of my period. So that's amazing.

Khalila McCoy 15:57

Do you have medication that you can take when that happens, or do you just kind of have to fight through it?

Ann Harikeerthan 16:03

Um yeah, that's a really good question. So there there are a lot of medicines for migraine. Um, there are some medicines that prevent migraine. Um I started taking that when I was uh really having a difficult time with migraine. But what I found was that it had other side effects and it wasn't perfect in its ability to prevent the migraine. So I I stopped the medicines and I just focused on um reducing or avoiding the triggers and that worked better. Yeah. But when I get an episode now, um I found that what works best is to take a painkiller really early. So um here I just use paracetamol, which I think in the US is called Tylenol. Yes, yeah. So I just take one of that really early. So that's when the pain intensity is one out of ten. Um what I used to do before was to think, okay, let's just wait and see. If it gets worse, then I'll take the medicine. But what ends up happening is as the symptoms worsen, the simpler medicines don't work. At which point, um, if I need to feel better, I would need injectable analgesics, or I would have to go to the hospital. So this is what I found works, which is to take um a small over-the-counter painkiller really early. So as soon as the symptoms begin. And that usually just aborts the symptoms within, I don't know, maybe an hour or so.

Khalila McCoy 17:46

Oh good. So when did you have your last migraine? Three days back. Okay. Okay. Oh, lucky you.

Ann Harikeerthan 18:00

Lucky me. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 18:03

But you took the Tylenol and in an hour, at least that that issue in your body was taken care of right now. So then fast forward to your immune system, right? Yeah. What happened with that?

Ann Harikeerthan 18:20

Okay, so um it was winter last year. Um pretty much around the same time as now when we're doing this recording. And the temperature was it wasn't too low. I mean, it's not as cold. It doesn't get as cold here as it does in the US. But it was colder than the place where I grew up. And uh, during a cold wave, um, in the middle of the night, I just felt like my toe was hurting. Initially I thought some insect had bitten it. I took a look and it looked like, you know, swelling a little bit. Just looked like an insect bite. So I ignored it and I went back to sleep. It didn't occur to me that what was happening was that it was too cold and something was happening to my toes. Um but within a couple of days we noticed that the pain hadn't subsided, it had gotten worse and the swelling was worse. And uh when these symptoms had begun, my husband was not in town. He had gone out of station. And he just came back and he saw my toe and he was like, Ann, it's purple.

Khalila McCoy 19:32

Wow. That's good.

Ann Harikeerthan 19:35

That started to ring some bells because I remembered from uh studying medicine that if a toe turns purple, it's usually because it's lost blood supply. And um I also knew that if a toe loses blood supply, not all of them, just one toe loses blood supply, it's very likely that um the reason why that happened is either just because it's a frostbite or because um there's an autoimmune condition which is causing the toe to turn purple. So that's when I began to think that there is an autoimmune condition that's um happening. But I didn't know what it was. So I went back to uh my alma mater, which is a hospital, and I spoke to one of my um one of the people who graduated before me, who is a specialist in um issues related to the immune system, and she asked a bunch of questions and she helped me figure out that it was um a condition called chogrin's. But um chogrins is it's it's a common, it's quite common apparently, but only some people have um symptoms like this of toast early purple, things of that sort. Um I didn't know a lot about it at that point, but then I Googled it and I found out that one of the um uh one of the Williams sisters, uh the tennis players, has children. And I was so happy to just hear her story and to know that she's been through this and she knows what it's like. She knows what it's like to put a pause on her career because of it and then come back to it, and things of that sort. So it was it was just fantastic to um.

Khalila McCoy 21:32

Yeah, that's so cool that you were Yeah, you were able to hear her story and kind of feel like you weren't alone in it and that there was hope. Yeah. Because I believe you told me before this is not curable, right? So it's something you'll always have to manage.

Ann Harikeerthan 21:47

Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 21:48

Other than your toe losing blood, like and turning purple, what are some of the other symptoms that you experience with this?

Ann Harikeerthan 21:57

Um, so with with shokens, it's It's usually dryness of the skin, of the mouth, um of like everywhere. So a lot of things can get painful and during winter, you know, like skin can crack and that can be painful. Um but uh we also noticed that my symptoms don't fit perfectly into shoplance. Um because I do get a few other symptoms which are more typical of a slightly more serious um autoimmune condition, but it hasn't yet fully manifested, so we just have to wait and see what it is. So I I also get a rash on the face, it's called a mala rash. I get ulcers inside my mouth. And um in the future it's possible that um I could have joint pains, um it could it could lead to other organs also getting affected. But the hope is that we will be able to spot and treat those things or avoid those things that can worsen these symptoms. So in that sense, having migraine helped because it taught me to take care of my body. And now with this happening, I just began to reframe it in that I started to think, okay, this illness is teaching me how to care for my body better. So it's gonna help me find more things that I need to be careful of. Um a simple thing is winters, right? So whereas last year I was very ignorant of what's happening during winter, this year I'm more careful to um keep myself warm and make sure that um, you know, I'm moisturized well. Right. Just yeah. Think so that's what I think I found this to be a really good way of thinking of it, that these illnesses just help me understand the mechanics of my body and help me figure out how to take care of it better.

Khalila McCoy 24:12

Yeah, I like how you're turning the situation into a positive, making yourself think, okay, I'm gonna slow down so I'm ready for whatever comes. You're not living in fear of what comes. And like you said, you've listened to your body, you've had to make changes before for your migraine, so you know you have the ability to do that again. And it's not something that is overwhelming. As far as like I know you're you're married, so I'm assuming your husband is a big support for you. Who do you lean on? Like on those days when it feels hard or you're uncomfortable. Do you have somebody you lean on? Do you have like, you know, like a little thing that you do that makes you feel better?

Ann Harikeerthan 24:52

Yeah. So when I'm on will, my husband does most of the things that we might have done together. So for instance, he would cook the food, uh, which usually is a shared responsibility. Right. Um and I'd just be in bed. He kind of take care of me, which is very sweet. Um another thing that really helps, and this is something I found out when I was really uh young. So the first time that I had the migraine and I heard the crickets, um my mom came back home and she was really worried about me. So she just put her hand on my forehead. And I can't tell you how this worked, but within half an hour or so the symptoms subsided.

Khalila McCoy 25:42

I find the mother's love.

Ann Harikeerthan 25:45

Yeah. So a hand on the forehead, especially from my husband or my mother, yeah, still works. So when I'm not feeling so well, you know, I ask them to just place their hand on my forehead. Um and my cat also helps. So I think she also seems to know when I'm not feeling my best. So she just comes and snumbles up next to me and burrs, and that also helps. Um yeah, very often it's just switch off all the lights, pull the curtains, draw the sheets over myself and try to sleep.

Khalila McCoy 26:21

How do you manage like your social life? So from what I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, from what I know of Indian culture, it's a very big community. Food is a very big important part. So we already talked about the food aspect of it. I'm sure some of the days like you have to stay at home to relax, and you're like, no, please don't call or come over. How do you balance that?

Ann Harikeerthan 26:42

Yeah, that's a really good question. Um so yes, in India, um food is a really important, vital part of community. Um and I'll I'll talk about it in a bit. I just want to mention another thing that's really big in India. So in India, um there are these different kinds of celebrations. For example, if someone is getting married, throw a huge, huge banquet with anywhere between thousand and five thousand people who's coming to wish the couple. So um there have been multiple times when I've had a really bad migraine, which stopped me from going to a friend's wedding. And I think that that hits me the hardest, that I wasn't there for them on the day when they were getting married. And this happened with at least um three really close friends. So um that really upset me that I couldn't be there with them. Um but uh like I was saying, food is an important part of the culture. So for instance, if um we were meeting friends, it would have to be over a meal most most of the time. So it's very rare that you know people would meet as friends and go for a movie or meet as friends and go play some games. Very often to have a meal. Um so sometimes when friends invite me over to their homes, I would tell them that I have these dietary restrictions. And uh occasionally they would listen to whatever's saying and they would make sure that you know the food doesn't have those ingredients. Like yesterday I went to a friend's house and they were really kind about it and they made sure that the food was um was perfect for me. But sometimes people come with that attitude of, you know, you're just making this up or you just need to pray a little bit more, sort of thing. And um what's happened was when that happened, I felt really hurt and I g I couldn't get past the fact that they were not able to just um appreciate this boundary that I had with food or to think that you know it's it's important for me to take care of my body and that I can't just eat because they created something we made.

Khalila McCoy 29:21

So here in America, I feel like all we talk about is food allergies, right? Like people can't have peanuts or people can't have gluten and things like that. Like it's very common to go places and understand that you can ask for your food to be prepared a certain way, or you know, don't have this at, you know, at our schools we have peanut-free tables. Is our food allergies not something that's talked about a lot in India, or is it something that you don't see regularly?

Ann Harikeerthan 29:54

I think in India there's not as much awareness of um food allergies. I mean, people know, for instance, that seafood could cause allergies. So there are, you know, like if you go to a restaurant and you tell them that I can't have shellfish, that's an allergy they would take seriously. But everything else, it's not as understood or the general public isn't very aware that's so since your allergy is not one of like the more common ones, yeah.

Khalila McCoy 30:27

Then it's not taken as seriously.

Ann Harikeerthan 30:29

And it's part of Indian food. It's people's stuff.

Khalila McCoy 30:33

That's what we always do, right? Yeah.

Ann Harikeerthan 30:35

Yeah. So they find it really difficult. I think the more complicated thing is that um a lot of people uh depend on these spices for their cooking to bring the flavors that they want. So asking them to cook without it can feel difficult for them, especially if they're not very familiar with cooking.

Khalila McCoy 30:57

Because they don't know what else to put in there. They don't know what else to put in it.

Ann Harikeerthan 31:01

Uh-huh. Yeah, exactly.

Khalila McCoy 31:02

Um have you found good substitutions?

Ann Harikeerthan 31:07

I found that even if you just leave out those ingredients, it still tastes very good.

Khalila McCoy 31:15

I like that. You should just celebrate like, hey, it's still gonna be great. As long as you cook it, right?

Ann Harikeerthan 31:20

Yeah. So um, for example, um chili peppers and we use a lot of chili powders as well. So red chili powdered and just you know, like like paprika, but really spicy. Um instead of that, you can just use black pepper. Okay. You use a lot of it and it creates the spice that we want without it being a trigger. So um there are substitutes as well, but in addition to that, some things I find just taste better without the spices. Um I also want to say that um I found something really interesting when I discovered the the food triggers. And I think this is this is how I found who my people were. So, like I imagine, you know, I went to friends' houses and they ignored what I was saying. But then I I went to my aunt's house, and this is my mom's brother's wife. So my mom's brother's family. We went there for uh dinner, and I just explained to my aunt that, you know, I can't have these things because it it gives me my cream. And so she made this huge banquet with dishes, and she made the same dishes for me without the ingredients. And I tasted both just to make sure that they tasted exactly the same. It was amazing. And um what was fascinating was that I didn't have to tell any other relative that I have these food allergies. Every time I went to another person's house, they made food and they they said we already made it to your requirements because Auntie's dead so that was so amazing. Then, you know, like they just um yeah, it did it just it made me feel really loved that they would think about it and consider it even before I tell them anything. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 33:22

That is really sweet. I know you said that you have a book coming out. Is your book related to this?

Ann Harikeerthan 33:29

Yeah, so my book is called From Wounds to Wholeness. A Doctor's Journey to Healing from Trauma. Um it's a book that talks about a lot of my stories. So it does talk about um my journey to finding the migraine triggers. Um, it talks about my transition from being a doctor to becoming a writer, and it also talks about um deeper issues like um um trauma from childhood. And I've interviewed a lot of people to write this book, so it's not just my story, but the stories of people who have been through really difficult things like abuse, and who've had um complicated diagnosis being given to them. Um and it it's just a book that explores how they made a sense of it and how I made sense of my experiences.

Khalila McCoy 34:30

You mentioned before earlier that when you were younger, the migraines kind of were born out of trauma. Do you mind sharing what some of the trauma that you experienced?

Ann Harikeerthan 34:41

Um I can share some of it. Uh so I think in Indian culture, um the school system is quite different. I remember when I was um really young in school, um must have been in the fourth grade at that point. There was a teacher who was really scary. Really, really scary. And um she used to hit people, you know, like little children, and uh she would yell a lot. It was it was accepted in India at that point. Um so I remember um that every every time her class was coming, um her class was usually uh after lunch. So there was a period after lunch when there was some other subject, and then there was this one. Um and if I had not completed my homework, right after lunch I would get a I would get a tummy ache.

Khalila McCoy 35:51

Yeah, because you're nervous to see her reaction.

Ann Harikeerthan 35:55

Yeah. And um I remember going to the uh the school, you know, the first aid area, forgot what it was called, like a rest space. And um they called my mom, and my mom was like, she's she doesn't have anything at the moment. But anyway, she came to school and picked me up and took me home. And then my mom kind of, you know, tried to understand what was going on, and I told her about, you know, this teacher. And so they figured out that um this teacher was causing so much trauma to so many kids.

Khalila McCoy 36:36

So the school didn't know she was acting this way.

Ann Harikeerthan 36:39

The school knew about it, but I think they didn't realize what kind of an impact it was having on the kids.

Khalila McCoy 36:45

Right.

Ann Harikeerthan 36:46

Um because I think like for a really long time there was just this thought that, you know, spare the rod, spoil the kid.

Khalila McCoy 36:52

Spoil the child, yeah.

Ann Harikeerthan 36:54

Yeah. So um, yeah, I think it it was just not something that we were talking about in India at that point. And it was just very normal and casual to spam kids and you know, be angry with them and that sort of thing. But it was causing a lot of agony for a lot of kids. And this was when they figured out. Um And then they I think we we tried to speak to the school admin. My mom must have, you know, had a word with them and say that um do something about it. But the the sad part was that, you know, a few days later, when the teacher realized that I was the person who raised the complaint, um, she, you know, she was just pacing up and down in the class. And by this time they made sure that there was always another teacher present. Okay. So it wasn't just her, it was another teacher as well. Um and she said um in in Tamil, which is the uh the language of the place where I grew up, um she said something that meant you are the one who brought me disgrace. And I carry that also with me for a really long time. Um so yeah, this is just one example, but you know, just generally because of the culture kind of people and the kind of thinking that exists, um, there were a lot of other things as well. Yeah. It's also very common for girls to get molested when they're really little. So that happened to me as well when I was a kid. Um yeah, things of that sort. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 38:35

And I'm so sorry that you had to experience that. First of all, as a former fourth grade teacher myself, like that should never happen. You shouldn't be scared to go to school. Adults should never talk down on you, on kids out there. And I know you know that. So I'm really sorry that that happened, as well as being molested. I know that can carry a lot of weights. And I feel like your story, like you've just talked about, you know, the physical things that you're doing with as far as the chronic migraines and the autoimmune, um, the autoimmune condition, but you have a lot of healing and pain inside that you've had to deal with as well. Now you talked about the culture being different. Was it something like you could go to therapy for? Is it something you kind of had to figure out on your own? Like figure out like what she said to be like I didn't bring her disgrace, like I stood up for myself and healing from what you've experienced. How did that happen for you?

Ann Harikeerthan 39:34

Um yeah, so therapy is another thing that, you know, within the Indian culture, is like um it it's still treated with a lot of uh skepticism and stigma. So it's not very easy to uh for people to go to therapy. Uh but I did speak to a lot of different people. I had um friends who are therapists who helped me through some of these things. But I think the biggest thing to help me heal was writing itself. So I remember when I had um left clinical medicine and started writing, I had a lot of anger and bitterness towards the fact that I didn't pursue the career that I wanted to pursue. But um I followed a path which was really the dreams of my family and my community. So I was carrying a lot of, you know, hambring a lot of anger around that. Um so I wrote to another writer um explaining that, you know, this is what I'm going through. And he's a much older writer, very well established in India. His name is Vahalsan Thambu. Um and he gave me this idea that, you know, I could I could just write about what I'm experiencing and how I'm going through this process of healing, and that you know, I could write to him and then he would share his thoughts on it, and then it would be like a written counselling session, if that makes sense. And then he said, as you're doing this and it's coming together, just think about making it a book. So actually that's how this book came into existence. It is a series of conversations um that I had with this person, this other writer and so the way we did it was I would write a chapter and send it to him. And there were chapters where I was processing something. Sometimes it was heavy with research because that's what I was doing at that point, you know, I was researching something. And then he would send back edits with comments in brackets, and those comments would sometimes go for pages, and um those would be things that really uplift and really help me put what I'm going through into perspective. Okay, a different form of counseling. It was very effective, it really helped. And of course, you know, we got this beautiful book out of here. Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 42:16

Now, are all is your writings kind of more of that reflective? Or do you what else do you what what other types of writing? Sorry, I'm asking this a little bit. What other types of writings do you do?

Ann Harikeerthan 42:29

Um so I do write fiction. I write poetry. Um, but I think my favorite at the moment is nonfiction. Okay. And yes, it is very reflective. Um what I've found was uh quite recently, you know, I was thinking I need to be able to live what I write. And then there was a lot of pressure, you know, to to make sure that whatever I was living was what I was writing. Right. Um, so it was like I thought I'm writing this ideal and I need to make sure that I'm living it. But then as I was thinking about it more, I realized that that's not my style at all. My style is to write what I'm living. So I write from experience. And uh I write lessons that I drew from the stories that I went through. So um it's not that I live what I write with the other, you know.

Khalila McCoy 43:28

And I think you write what you live.

Ann Harikeerthan 43:30

Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 43:32

Yeah, and like you said, that kind of adds like that therapeutic experience to it as well. It makes you a reflective person, I'm sure.

Ann Harikeerthan 43:41

Yeah. Yeah. And I found that um a lot of the questions that I ask myself are also questions that other people enjoy, like answers to. So I started a community of writers um where It's it's a free community, anyone can join. Where we meet together once in a couple of weeks and I share writing prompts. Um and then we just answer those questions and then towards the end we might write a poem or a short story or um just a little bit of an essay, a little bit of prose and share it with one another. And we found that this is also really therapeutic.

Khalila McCoy 44:28

Now, how did you decide to start your community?

Ann Harikeerthan 44:33

Oh, uh that's that's a good question as well. So um I had mentioned earlier in the conversation that there was this church that I was part of, which didn't really understand. So when we left that church, there was this huge lacuna. I felt like I didn't have community. Um the place where I'm living right now is very far from my family. It's um it would take us um there there are no direct flights. So people would have to go through two different airports at least. And if they were to take a train to us or a bus, it would take 24 hours.

Khalila McCoy 45:18

Oh, yeah, that's a long time.

Ann Harikeerthan 45:19

Yeah, yeah. So um I was feeling very isolated here. I mean, of course, my husband is here, but um I felt like I needed friends and I needed people who were on in the same wavelength as me. So one of my mentors at the time said, you know, if you don't have a community there, start a community.

Khalila McCoy 45:42

Okay, yeah.

Ann Harikeerthan 45:44

Um I started this community online because um there were friends in different parts of the country and the world that I wanted to keep in touch with. And I felt like um if it's a virtual community, then it would it would work well. So that's how the community started.

Khalila McCoy 46:07

Um about how many people do you think you connect with?

Ann Harikeerthan 46:11

Right now there are about a hundred people in the community.

Khalila McCoy 46:16

Wow, that's awesome, yeah.

Ann Harikeerthan 46:18

Yeah. And I think almost all of them are writers. Okay. Um in different phases of their writing journey.

Khalila McCoy 46:25

I guess they couldn't just be like an amateur, they don't have to be like this in training to be a professional.

Ann Harikeerthan 46:31

Yeah. And it could also be that, you know, they just they only want to journal. You can be a writer and only journal. You know, you don't have to publish something. So um, yeah, we have all kinds of people, just people who like to write.

Khalila McCoy 46:46

Can you give us an example of like what a prompt was that you recently talked about?

Ann Harikeerthan 46:52

We did a set of workshops using the psalms as a model. So uh using that, I created a few prompts, and one of them is based on the psalm, psalm three, where it's a really nice psalm. The psalmist is very, very authentic and honest to God. And the psalmist says, break the teeth of my foes. And I just thought, you know, that that's fantastic. We should be able to at least write like that, you know, without the pretenses. Yeah. So um the prompts were um, what is something that's disturbing you today? Um, what do you know to be true in this situation? And how does that bring you courage? And what would you like God or um the higher power to do for you in this context? And people wrote amazing things. I am it.

Khalila McCoy 48:04

Yeah. Yeah. That is so deep. I'm like sitting here like, whoa, I'm gonna have to replay this and like sit down and journal myself. That is a really good. So each week it's really so it's not just like create a story about a fairy tale thing. Like this is real stuff that is making you dig deep into who you are.

Ann Harikeerthan 48:26

Yeah, yeah.

Khalila McCoy 48:27

That's really neat.

Ann Harikeerthan 48:29

Yeah.

Khalila McCoy 48:29

And do you always come up with a prompt or do other people lead some weeks? How does that work?

Ann Harikeerthan 48:35

Um most of the time I create the prompts. But what I've done is um I've invited different people to talk. Okay. And um to to just share their knowledge, their wisdom about uh different things that we are writing about. So for instance, there have been people talking to us about storytelling, there have been people talking to us about poetry. Um with this group that's walking through the psalms, we also have people coming in talking about um, you know, how the psalms are structured, what the poetry, what the poetry within it is like, and things of that sort. Um so people teach. I have asked a few people to share prompts as well to help people reflect and write. And sometimes you do it really well, but I think it it's a learning process. So um I'm hoping that very soon more people be able to lead these workshops.

Khalila McCoy 49:42

I like that a lot. You're creating space for other people as well.

Ann Harikeerthan 49:46

Yeah, yeah. I think with prompts it's just um the art of you know thinking about what question would make me think deeper. And if we ask the same question to other people, then we'd find that they also think deeper.

Khalila McCoy 50:08

Right.

Ann Harikeerthan 50:10

And uh during these workshops, um, although I give the prompts, I also write. So I find that it tends to be quite therapeutic for me as well.

Khalila McCoy 50:21

Ann, when you and I first met, you let me know there's a lot of things that you could talk about from your life. And when I asked you to pick what you wanted to share and what you felt most comfortable talking about, you really wanted to share about the chronic illnesses and pains that you went through that you were still dealing with in your life. Now that we've heard what you go through and what you live through pretty much daily, talk to us about what you really hope the listener takes away from what you've shared today and how they can use what you've shared to rise.

Ann Harikeerthan 51:04

Um, you know, through my life I've experienced different forms of difficulty, different forms of suffering, whether it's illness or um recovery from trauma or having to do go into a career that I was not interested in, um, difficulties with relationships, uh sometimes financial difficulties, different things of this sort. Um but I just want to say that, you know, I've found that it helps a lot to think about suffering um in an in a new way, meaning try to speak to different people and try to find a narrative for your suffering that empowers you. Because the stories that we tell around our suffering matter. So if I say that, you know, I'm suffering because um I'm a bad person, or I'm suffering because this is what I deserve, or I'm suffering because you know the world is against me, that's the story that's gonna stick. And it's gonna affect us, um, not just in our mind, but also in our body, in our spirit. Um what would help instead is to speak to people to understand their perspectives on it, and then to create a story about your suffering that works for you. Like I was saying with my illnesses, it's that these teach me how to take care of my body better. And that almost gives purpose to something that's otherwise, you know, just a pain in the neck. Right? So that would be the last thing that I would say, you know. Um try to see if there's a story that's more powerful for you in whatever you're going through.

Khalila McCoy 53:04

That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing yourself with the people that you're helping and as you're helping yourself too. And we'll definitely link um the information to join your community or to look at your website. And also, um, I know your book's not coming out for a few months, but we'll check back in and we'll be excited to hear. I will definitely get a copy. I'm excited to hear and read about your exchanges with the other author. So I think it's gonna be wonderful.

Ann Harikeerthan 53:38

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This has been such a beautiful conversation.

Khalila McCoy 53:44

Thank you. Ann's story has so many layers to it. We didn't just hear a woman talk about being sick or not feeling well. We heard how illness and pain have reshaped her entire life. Things that many of us take for granted, the food we eat, the culture we grew up in, the friendships we assume would hold. All of that has been tested by something completely outside of her control. And yet, Ann finds a way to carry the weight of it all through writing. It's her passion, her outlet, and her bridge to connection. In the show notes, you'll find a link to her Instagram. I really encourage you to follow her. She often shares her poems and they are truly beautiful. As Ann wrapped up the conversation, she said, change the narrative. She also said, create a story around your suffering that works for you. She's not telling us to pretend everything is fine or to deny that we're going through something. She's inviting us to rise above it, to look at our pain and ask how it might move us forward instead of holding us back. And that's not easy. It can be terrifying to confront the truth of a situation or to acknowledge the limits something has placed on us. But that's where real growth begins. When we stop running from the hard parts and start facing them with honesty and compassion, we give ourselves a chance to heal, to shift, and to become someone stronger on the other side. Ann took her heart and turned it into art. She uses her gift for writing to help others feel seen and teaches other writers how to do the same. And while yes, Ann's story and many of the stories on this podcast begin in a place of pain or struggle, your story doesn't have to start there. If you're someone who hasn't walked through the fire, that's wonderful. You still have something to offer. You still have a voice, a gift, and a perspective that can help someone else. In honor of Ann, I will do my best to give you a thoughtful writing prompt. So when you get a chance, pick one and reflect on it. Here we go. Here's the first one. Write about a moment in your life where the story you were telling yourself kept you stuck. Then explore what happens when you shift that narrative. What new meaning, possibility, or direction becomes available when you choose to see it differently? Or my second one is reflect on a gift, talent, or passion that has helped you grow. How can you lean into that strength even more and allow it to expand in your life? If you would like to share your reflection with me or others, look for Where We Rise Pod on YouTube. I'll post these questions in the community section and you can reply there. I can't wait to see what you write. Alright, y'all. That's our time for today. But you know what I'm gonna say. As you move through the rest of your day, I hope you take a moment to listen a little louder to yourself, to the people you love, and to the things that connect us the ways we sometimes forget to know. I'll meet you back here next time. See ya bye.