06 | "Letting Go" | Divorce Later in Life

Dr. Nicole Rochester shares her personal journey of self-discovery and transformation, focusing on her experiences with marriage, divorce, and personal growth. She discusses the challenges she faced in her marriage, the impact of her parents' divorce on her life, and the realization of her own worth and identity beyond societal labels. Dr. Nicole emphasizes the importance of community, faith, and self-reflection in overcoming life's disruptions and finding freedom and joy in new beginnings. Her story is a testament to resilience and the power of letting go to embrace a more fulfilling life.

Connect with Dr. Nicole:

podcast: Your nEXt Chapter with Dr. Nicole

Instagram: yournextchapter_co

Website: Your nEXt Chapter Podcast

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Transcript

Khalila McCoy 0:00

Hi, I'm Khalila McCoy, and this is the show that creates space for honest conversation. This is Where We Ride. Hello, wonderful people. Guess what? Today's episode marks the first full month that Where We Rise has been live. And we've already passed 250 downloads. That means so much to me. Thank you for taking the time to listen, to show up, and to step into someone else's story with me each week. I also want to give a big shout-out to those of you who have sent me private messages about how an episode touched you. With your permission, I've shared some of those notes with the guests, and they've been moved by your words. And a special shout out to Kimberly on Spotify for being the first person to leave a comment and rate the show. She shared how inspired she was by Benica's story in episode four, and she raved about Erica Cartilage from episode two. Kimberly, I've loved hearing how you connect with these conversations. If you are a listener on Spotify, you can leave a comment under each episode just like Kimberly. If you're an Apple Podcast listener, you can leave a rating for the show and a review for the show as a whole. If you ever want to reach out to me directly, you can follow at Where We RisePop on Instagram and DM me. Or you can send me a message through the fan mail option that you see at the beginning of the show notes, no matter what platform you are on. Those come straight to me through my buzz scrap site. So again, thank you for being here. Keep listening and keep sharing those episodes with others. Let's get the whole world rising. Today's episode, we're hearing from Dr. Nicole, who shares her decision to get divorced in her 50s. And listen, this is not a sad, heavy, or man-bashing conversation. In fact, you're actually gonna hear a lot of joy in her voice. Although she'll admit it's taken time to get where she is today. This is a story rooted in hope, faith, being true to yourself, and knowing when it's time to let go. It's honest and it's one of those conversations that remind you it's never too late to rise. All right, we're here with Dr. Nicole. How are you today?

Dr. Nicole 2:34

I am well, Khalila. How are you?

Khalila McCoy 2:36

I'm great. I'm I'm happy to have you in this space. I'm excited to hear what you have to talk about. And I'm also excited because for the listeners, I just learned that Dr. Nicole has a podcast of her own. So we'll definitely mention that and talk a little bit about that and what you talk about on your podcast. So listeners can find you and your content there as well.

Dr. Nicole 2:59

Thank you.

Khalila McCoy 3:00

Our episode today, we are gonna dive into a few areas of your life that are pretty personal, but you're willing to share them because you want to help others grow. But before we talk about that, I want you to tell us about the woman that you are today. Who are you now? And what do you love about yourself?

Dr. Nicole 3:21

That's such a great question. Who am I today? I'm gonna answer this very intentionally because prior to a few years ago, Khalila, when I would talk about who I am, it was always the labels and who I was to other people. And I would say one of the major transformations of my healing journey, which I'm still in, is recognizing just who I am, period, that doesn't connect to what I do for other people. So with that in mind, who I am today, I am uh I'm a woman of God, I am vibrant, I am joyful, I am spirit-led, I am optimistic, I am uh insightful and um forward thinking, I'm goal-oriented, and I'm in this space of really just accepting the uncertainty of my future and being okay with that and just rolling with whatever it is that God has in store for me.

Khalila McCoy 4:33

Yeah, I really like that. I like that you said getting away from the labels because that's what I would do too. I would say, Oh, I'm a mom, I'm a wife, this is my job. But you really opened my mind with that answer of that's not exactly who I am, it's more of what I do and what I give to others. So I'm learning from you already. We haven't even been a few seconds in. That's awesome. And then as far as what do you love about yourself?

Dr. Nicole 4:58

Oh, yes. What do I love about myself? I love that at 55 years old, I am still learning and growing and evolving. And as someone who is a self-proclaimed recovering perfectionist and recovering control freak, um, my life right now does not look at all like I thought it would look like. Like literally, not at all like I thought it would look like. There have been a lot of twists and turns over the last, I don't know, 15, 20 years. And um the old version of myself was ups uh like anxious about those shifts and changes and holding on to the past and not wanting to accept that you know, some some things are seasons and and seasons end. But now, um, you know, in middle age, which I can't believe I'm middle age, but I guess that's what they call people my age, I'm in this really exciting season, which is also it's still scary. Like there are still a lot of unknowns, but I'm entering this season with a degree of freedom that I have never had in my life, and I love that about me.

Khalila McCoy 6:11

Good. I'm happy for you. That sounds great. So take us back now to those years, probably about 15, 20 years ago, where you weren't as confident and you didn't have, you know, the same viewpoint of life and outward look that you have now.

Dr. Nicole 6:27

Yeah, so it's funny that you said not as confident because that's one of the things I've been kind of struggling with, is I always have been very confident and very like a high achiever from the outside, you know, outside looking in, like the things that people check the boxes for. I'm a physician, I'm a pediatrician by training. I knew since I was seven or eight that I wanted to be a doctor, and that was who I was. Like little Nicole was like, if I decided I was gonna do something, I was gonna do it. So as a little girl, I was like, I'm gonna be a doctor, and I'm gonna be a pediatrician. And you know, it was hard, but I did what I needed to do and studied hard and all those things and got really good grades and you know became a doctor. Yeah. Um, I also always knew that I wanted to be a mom and I wanted to be a wife. So I've always had this degree of confidence, um, even when I was younger. But what what I what I realize now is that back then I was very much tied to my accomplishments. Okay. And um I thought that I was self-motivated, like when I was getting straight A's in school, or if I got an award or whatever, I used to say, like, oh, that, you know, I'm self-motivated, like I just want to be my best. But what I've uncovered more recently after my divorce, which I'm sure we'll talk about, is how deeply impacted I was by my own parents' divorce. I was like four or five when my parents got divorced. And what I'm learning now, many, many decades later, is that some of my overachieving tendencies were rooted in my desire to like please and to be seen and to make things better. I've always been a fixer. Um, and so like, yes, I'm smart, you know, I put smart in quotes. I think all of us are smart, but yes, I have academic um, you know, inclinations and I take tests really well, and all those things, right? But really, at the root of me striving to get straight A's in school and to get all of these accomplishments was was really like an inner broken child that wanted to be celebrated. And also it's like this was my way of like, well, I know this went wrong, but like mommy, daddy, like, look, I'm everything's okay, and like I'm still here and I can still do these things. So, yeah, so I mean, that was a huge uh discovery to realize, like, wow, a lot of the things that I was working so hard for. Yes, I did it for myself, but there was like a deeper wound that I was trying to heal. So that led to, you know, years of me just always going after the next goal and checking the next box and not spending a lot of time sitting with where I was. Um, it also led to me having a tendency to hold on to people and things and titles and longer than I should have. Yeah. Yeah. And like just being afraid to let things go.

Khalila McCoy 9:25

Yeah. Do you feel like that need to be seen? And like you said, with mom and dad, like, hey, everything's so good over here. Did you feel that from your family or your parents, or was it more internal, that pressure you put on yourself?

Dr. Nicole 9:38

Definitely internal. Okay. I mean, I think that my parents did the very best that they could in terms of managing the divorce and my my siblings and I. Um, that I don't even know where it came from, but it was definitely internal. It wasn't something that they were placing on me. Now, my dad, he was the more strict parent of the two. And he definitely had very high expectations around grades and academic performance. So maybe some of it was coming from him. But I think that what I internalized in terms of I needed to do these things in order to be like worthy of, you know, maybe you know, his love. And my mom was really just truly like unconditional. So not to blame my dad, they're both deceased, so they can they can't speak up for themselves. Right. But not to blame my dad. But you know, now that you asked me the question, I I think there was an element of meeting his expectations and making him proud that I think uh that became a part of my identity of making everyone proud, not just my dad.

Khalila McCoy 10:40

Yeah. And going through a div I know you said you were four years old when your parents got divorced, but I mean you've shared that you're 55 now. I think we see a lot more divorces nowadays, and it's not as you know, I'm a school teacher, so I hear kids talk about like, oh, my parents are divorced, you know what I mean? I know when I was a kid, it was like, oh, your parents are divorced. Like, you know, it's more whispered. So when you were going through that as a child growing up, how did that affect how you saw family and your idea of what love looked like?

Dr. Nicole 11:10

Such a good question, Khalila, because you're right. Like I'm a 70s baby, so this was like mid-70s when my parents got divorced. And like you said, you know, most families at that time, even if they were unhappy, they stayed together. Exactly. They sucked it up. So most of my friends, um, you know, their parents were married, and I remember, I don't, it's funny because I don't really remember like sharing with my friends at school that my parents had gotten a divorce. But I do have a very distinct memory of a season where my dad got remarried and we switched schools. So it was like my sixth grade year. I was so upset that he did that at that time. But my last year in elementary at the time, elementary went up to sixth grade. Uh-huh. And so I had a new school for sixth grade, and you know, none of these people knew me before. And I remember my sixth grade teacher gave us these composition books, and we were journaling, and she had us write in the journal. And I remember withholding, like specifically withholding that my parents were divorced. And I remember that when there was like a time for a teacher, parent-teacher conference. I can't remember if my dad went, but I know my stepmother went, and so she had met my stepmother. Because my stepmother married my dad and took on his name. My stepmother and I had the same last name. And while we really didn't look alike at all, I kind of like just let her believe that that was my mother. And then I can't remember, somewhere in the middle of the school year, I remember it was time, like it was like daily. She's like, okay, open up your journals. And I wrote her this letter, you know, letting her know, like, I haven't told you the whole truth. And like, I want to let you know that the woman that you met is my stepmother. Yeah, so it's like, I don't even think, I don't know why I hid it. I mean, I maybe there was some type of shame, which is interesting, because it's like I wasn't the one, well now I am, but like I wasn't the one that got divorced. Right. But it's interesting, even as a kid, apparently, there was some type of shame that I felt about the decisions that um that my parents had made. And so it definitely the way it impacted me specifically in terms of because both of my parents ended up getting remarried. Um, their two marriages, their remarriages were very, very different. But what it what it showed me or what it instilled in me was like a fear of endings and a fear of divorce. And so um my parents were divorced, my grandparents on both sides um were divorced, and so I kind of developed this again. This is all like this is me in my 50s being able to understand this. Back then, of course, I didn't, but yeah, I developed this fear of ending, and so I was determined that despite my parents, also both I have two older sisters, both of them are divorced, and so I was like, that is never gonna happen to me. Like, I am not gonna be divorced, I am gonna stay married forever. And so when I got married to what I now know is the wrong person, I stayed in that marriage for 28 years because I just kept hoping and believing and praying and wishing that things were going to get better. And it's like I I realize now I held on so tightly to the idea of marriage and like the concept of marriage that I wasn't fully seeing my marriage for what it was and how much it was, you know, harming me and and and making me dim my light.

Khalila McCoy 14:37

So share a little bit about what your marriage was like since like you said, looking back, you realized all the things that weren't healthy in it. What was your marriage like that you thought, oh, this is typical and I can just work through this?

Dr. Nicole 14:49

Yeah. So my ex-husband and I met when I was 17 and he was 18. And I think that's also important because not that I decided at that age to get married, but you know, this is somebody that it's a decision that I made when I was very young, and when I didn't have the knowledge or the tools to really evaluate a partnership. Um, but we met when we were really young, and you know, we had of course we had ups and downs, even in our teenage years. We broke up a couple times, but I really felt like this was the one for me. We, you know, we had a cute relationship when we were younger and ultimately got married and had two daughters. And um for me, there were, of course, in hindsight, like everything makes sense, right? Right. So I can definitely say now that there were some signs of betrayal and infidelity early in the relationship that he denied. This is like before marriage and after marriage. There was always this um, I'm laughing because there was always this like very elaborate explanation for things. You know, like there, I mean, I'm really thinking back to like in my 20s, there was like a photo that I found. And then maybe in my 30s, there was um, you know, think back some social media site. I can't remember what it was, but way before Facebook, there was something that I found. It was like, oh no, that was my that's my friend. He's uh he's using my account so that he can talk to women. I mean, there were there were a lot of things, Khalila. Like now that I'm saying them out loud, I'm like, girl. But you know, at the time you just want to believe that the person that you love is telling you the truth. So um, so there was that. Like there were definitely some signs here and there of of infidelity that were told, you know, I was told that's not true. And and then there were some signs.

Khalila McCoy 16:40

Did you realize in the moment? Do you feel like you realized it, but you like you said, you just didn't want to believe it, or did you truly I really believed him. Okay.

Dr. Nicole 16:48

I mean, and and this is where I mean, now what I know now is that there was manipulation and there absolutely was emotional abuse. I did not recognize that for what it was. And so I was all in, and he knew that. And and if you know people who do these things, they figure out what your weaknesses are, they figure out what you uh desire, and they always pretend that they are that thing. So he did a lot of faking, a lot of future faking, um, and always promising that the things that bothered me were not either not what I saw, not what I heard, making me believe that I'm the bad wife, I'm the bad girlfriend for questioning. How could you do that? You know how much I love you. And now I recognize all of this, you know. But at the time, I would literally, you know, uh approach him with certain things or confront him with certain things, and by the end of that conversation, I'm the one apologizing. Like that was a regular occurrence. Right. I'm feeling bad, like, oh no, you know, yeah, he's right, and I'm just being paranoid. Um, so yeah, I mean, outside of the the infidelity, I mean, which was a which turned out to be a major part of um our marriage, it was just this idea of um just being very manipulative and making me believe that he was someone who he wasn't, and not just me, but my I mean my entire family, his family, our mutual friends. I mean yeah, there was just this whole facade around who he was, and I think that there were glimpses into who he really was. There were things that he did and said to said to about his friends. Um, there were regular kind of like friend breakups and some even like family breakups. And again, me being the person at the time that was like always trying to fix things, I would say, like, well, but that was your best friend, and like you all you need to make up, and you know, why why aren't you talking to this person or why aren't you speaking to your cousin? And my mistake was believing that what he was doing to them would never happen to me. But in fact, you know, he if they're capable of doing it to one person, um, they're capable of doing those same things to me. And so I don't know the details of what was making him cut people off, but I have learned now that he has that ability, you know. Once you figure out who he really is, now you know, it's like he he doesn't he doesn't want anything to do with you. So so yeah, there were a lot of blind spots, and um also my my spirituality, my my Christian walk kept me in the marriage because one, I didn't want to be divorced for spiritual reasons, right? And two, you know, I had grown up in a quote unquote broken home, so I didn't want that for my kids. So yeah, and you know, you just you you hold on to these fairy tales, I think, as young girls, as young women, of what you hope your life is going to be like. And because the things that I had issues with, he always explained it as something out of his control or something external. It kept me hoping and wishing and even praying for things to be better, not understanding that the whole time, you know, these were all things that he absolutely had full control over.

Khalila McCoy 20:13

Now you're recently divorced, right? A few years into it. Yes.

Dr. Nicole 20:18

Um it was finalized in 2024.

Khalila McCoy 20:21

Okay. So did you like through all of this time, when did you start to realize like, this is bad, this is not getting better, but I'm going to stay the course anyways?

Dr. Nicole 20:32

Whew. I mean, I would I would honestly, if I'm really thinking about it and being honest, probably the last eight to ten years of my marriage, okay, I was very unhappy. I would say the first half of the marriage, I was just hanging in there. And, you know, I was like, well, this marriage is go through things, and then we'd have a rough patch, and then we'd have a really good patch, and then we'd have a rough patch, and then we'd have a really good patch. But the last eight to ten years, I think what I finally was starting to realize is that this is a cycle. Like I'm right, I'm arguing about the same things I was arguing about five, six, seven, eight years ago. I'm asking him for the same things I was asking him for five, six, seven, eight years ago. And the things that he promised then, just give me another year. I'm gonna stop doing this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna make it better. And it's like after a while, I just started in my 40s, I think, starting to see like this is a pattern. He, I still was, you know, the I was still being lied to and manipulated, and so I still didn't think that I still was made to believe that these things were out of his control. Um, just as an example, because I know this may not make a lot of sense, but he was gone a lot, and but he also had a lot of jobs, and so the the work that he did, it made it acceptable and normalized that he would come home late at night or maybe not come home until the next morning. And so now I realize, like, yeah, you're working maybe some of those days, but all of these things were happening. In a very chaotic way. And so to me, as the wife, I'm complaining that you're not home enough. You, as the husband, are giving me all these reasons why you're working so hard and you're trying to make, you know, provide for our family, and it's so hard for you. It's easy for me because I'm a doctor, but it's hard for him. So he has to work six jobs. And so then, you know, going back to me, oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, I know it is hard for you. So this was kind of this cycle. And so ultimately, even though I was still believing his reasons for lack of presence, it just got to the point where I was like, I this is not acceptable. Like, this is not what the kind of marriage that I want. I'm not happy. And it's never gonna change. You know, I think I just finally started to see that if for whatever was causing it, if it was gonna change, it would have changed by now. And if he really wanted it to change, he would have changed it by now. Right. And so, but that took me a long time to really understand to get out of that hoping, begging stage and to just see it for what it was.

Khalila McCoy 23:05

So, what were those eight to ten years like? Were did you kind of in your head just lower your expectations? Did you just kind of like you know like you're in a marriage, but you're almost single at the same time?

Dr. Nicole 23:16

Yes, I was definitely, I was definitely a single married woman. You know, there were there were moments like that kind of reminded me of our early relationship, but that's the thing. They were just moments. You know, we might have a vacation or we might have a date night or something like that, but that was those were few and far between. And I definitely lowered my expectations. I realized after the fact that I normalized things that were absolutely not normal, like absolutely not normal. And it just became our normal. And I just kind of accepted things that now, like this version of myself, would have would never accept the things that I accepted. But um, and I I basically just kind of stopped fighting. I mean, I I was I I grew tired of requesting the things that I needed and not getting them. And so I think I I also, you know, I mentioned I'm a physician, so I was in the process of, you know, kind of working my way up the healthcare corporate ladder, so to speak. I was raising two daughters. Um, at some point I left medicine and started my own business. So I was busy in the like accomplishing in the professional space. And going back to where we talked about my dad, I think that was again, I was pouring all my energy into my professional life, and I was winning over there. And the reality is that that was kind of occupying a lot of my time and energy, that and raising my girls. And so I really just put my marriage kind of over here in this box. Like I just I didn't even feel like I had the energy to give to the marriage and raising my girls and being a doctor and starting a business and you know, being there for my family and all the things. So I kind of just I don't know. I guess I just at some point I just accepted like this is the best it's going to get. But still hoping. Like that's the crazy, maybe it's not crazy, but I was still hoping and praying like God, you know, make this better, make work on me, work on him.

Khalila McCoy 25:22

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole 25:22

But I think there was a part of me that was probably not wanting to accept that, you know, it was a rap.

Khalila McCoy 25:29

Right. And I don't think it's crazy. I think it's um like when you marry somebody, right? And you make those vows, especially as a believer, you know that covenant that marriage is supposed to be strong, right? It's supposed to be forever. So I think it makes sense that you want to fight for it. It's just tough when you're the only one fighting. And like you said, you have that manipulation part of it, which is never good. And I had a friend actually who had a relationship similar to what you're talking about, where the guy was very manipulative. And I mean, I've been been married, I think we're going on eight years now. So I haven't been married that long. And you know, she's about my age. So it's hard to give advice. But she would ask, because like you said, like you would normalize things that aren't normal. And sometimes she would ask me, like, is this normal? Like, is this supposed to happen? And I think that's really poignant to the fact that we don't talk about this type of stuff a lot, right? Um, and I'd be interested to know, like, if you had friends or people you could go to to help you through that, because you know, we always say, Oh, well, everybody's different, every relationship is different, but some things are not okay. So we can't just say it's different. Like, what should be different? What shouldn't be different? So, in that kind of same field of thinking of the normalizing, who were you able to lean on or talk to during this time?

Dr. Nicole 26:43

I love that you asked that question, Khalila, because it's something that I have learned about myself in the process of going through divorce. I have always had really good friends, like my bestie since age 14. She didn't even know the half of what was going on. And I can even say it wasn't an intentional, like, I'm not going to tell her these things. Right. A lot of it was part of the manipulation and the ways that my that the the it's so deep, Khalila, but like the ways that if you think about, I I I actually call it grooming.

Khalila McCoy 27:19

I was groomed.

Dr. Nicole 27:20

I was groomed by my ex-husband to keep the things that happened, you know, to ourselves. And and also there's this high-achieving version of myself who is the strong friend. I'm the one that people go to when they're having problems. I'm the one giving out, interestingly, you know, relationship advice. And so I had never really allowed myself to be vulnerable in that way. And so my bestie and I, we did a podcast episode on my podcast, and I asked her that question. I was like, Tanya, you know, I realize now if I because she is that girl. Like, if I had told her any of the details, she would have talked some sense into me 20 years ago. And she would have been like, girl, that is not normal. You need to leave him. Right. But I, you know, I I definitely told her I was unhappy, or I would say things like, he's not home. But again, the reasons he wasn't home, those were being, you know, there was this whole smoke screen around that. And so the narrative was he he's he works too much. And so when I would complain to my best friends, or even to my sisters or other members of my family, I'm bringing the same narrative that he's giving me, like, oh, he works so much, he works too much, he's never home, he works so much. So we all bought into this thing, like, oh, he works all the time. That's why he doesn't come to family gatherings, or that's why he's late for Christmas dinner or whatever. But it's like, no, it's a whole nother thing. So I appreciate your question because it's one of the things that I have tried to pay forward is this idea that we need to talk to the people in our lives who love us, who aren't gonna judge us, and let them know, you know, even if you think it's okay, like you, like your friend did, just is this okay? Is this normal? We we need sounding boards. And I I had the the thing with me, I know some women feel like they don't have that. I had that. I just wasn't leveraging it. You know, I was so busy always showing up as the fixer. And so once all of the skeletons fell out of the closet and I filed for divorce, I was so blessed to have those people who I could now like just be completely open. Like, okay, like I I don't even have the energy or the capacity to be the strong friend. I'm not faking any more smiles, I'm not wearing any more masks. This is what's going on. And I mean, to be able to receive that unconditional love and still today, it is it has been one of the most beautiful aspects of my divorce.

Khalila McCoy 29:45

The community that came around you.

Dr. Nicole 29:47

Absolutely.

Khalila McCoy 29:48

What did you find the hardest part of finally coming to that endpoint?

Dr. Nicole 29:54

Hmm, I think letting letting go of my hopes and expectations. I think that it for the most part, it's not to say that everything always goes my way, because I've definitely had my share of, you know, difficulties of my life. But for the most part, for the things that I, of course, we're not in control of anything, but when you think you're in control of things, and when you go after things and and they and that you get them, that was kind of my history for the most part. It's like if I set my mind to something, then it would happen for me. So having that mindset and having that life experience, I struggled with failure. Like now I know, like this is it's all, this was all supposed to happen. But at the time, I felt like I failed. And I think part of what kept me so long in the marriage was I was like, oh no, I'm not, I do not fail.

Khalila McCoy 30:45

Right. I'm gonna make it.

Dr. Nicole 30:46

I do not fail. So I kept thinking, there is a way out of like I'm going to fix this, or God's gonna fix it, or me and God are gonna fix it together. But I wasn't the the hardest part was acknowledging, like, no, Nicole, this really is over. And me getting that answer from God, that was also hard. Because I was it was a season of about maybe almost two years when I finally was like, okay, I don't I don't think this is for me. But then I was asking God, like, God, give me a sign, like, do you want me to leave this marriage? Do you want me to stay? Um, what do you want? And I felt like there was this season where God was silent. I know now he wasn't silent. Like, first, I had way too many distractions to hear what he was actually telling me. So my experience of it was that he was he was not speaking to me. And so I was in this limbo of like, I don't know what to do. And I did not want to make this decision unless I knew for sure that God was telling me to make it. And so I was just in this season of you know, seeking God and asking for him. And then I had this conversation with a really good friend of mine, and she's a powerful woman of God and my prayer partner, and I was like, I'm just not hearing from God. I need him to make it obvious.

Khalila McCoy 32:01

Yes and boy, oh boy, did he make it obvious? Ask and you shall receive, right?

Dr. Nicole 32:06

Ask and you shall receive. He was like, Okay, now she's ready. Okay, she's ready.

Khalila McCoy 32:12

Okay. I like that because I know again, we talked about the the faith aspect. That's never the goal. But sometimes things are out of your hand, and you, like you said, you gave it to God and you waited to hear from him what that next move was. So I think that's really important. Having that faith or having those people that you can really trust and believe to lead you in that right direction. Um, tell me a little bit about your daughters and your thought process of how this is affecting them. Since, like you said, you came from home, and I know you realize how much that affected you. I'm sure a lot of it was staying for your daughters, but did you have any conversations with them? Were they noticing anything?

Dr. Nicole 32:52

I found out after the fact they were noticing a lot of things. And in fact, leading up to me filing and leading up to all the all of the discoveries, um, they separately, but particularly my youngest daughter would make comments like she was she saw that how unhappy I was because she was still at home during like the last couple of years, whereas my older daughter is married and she had moved out of the home. And she would say things like, Well, why why don't you just get a divorce? And I'll be like, Why are you saying that? That's your father, and we're, you know, I love him and he loves me. But what I realize now, they're they're young adults, like they they see things and they know things. And even when they were little, I think all of us on the other side of the divorce have been able to share memories and they have um like uncovered things when they were younger. Like, wait a minute, I remember daddy said this or did that and was talking to this person. So I think that the the the beautiful thing about my daughters is that we've been able to have very transparent conversations where they have basically said that they I'm sitting here trying to protect them from being in a quote unquote broken home, but in fact, they were in a broken home. You know, they were in a home where their mom was not honored and where um you know our family was not prioritized, and so they were watching all of this, and I was modeling without knowing it, this you know, basically staying in an unhealthy space. Right. And so now I get to model, you know, what that looks like to even at an older age take back control of my life and and and recognize that I'm worthy of more and I deserve more, and so do they. Right. So yeah, but that they have shared how it impacted their um relationships and their what they felt about relationships and picking partners. Because you know, a lot of times we repeat these, we we repeat these cycles if we're not careful. So I I it saddens me that they witnessed what they witnessed. Um, and I'm thankful that I have the opportunity now to do something different and that that we are there in a space, like they're not little girls, so we can have very honest conversations about what it looks like to be in an unhealthy relationship and um you know what you should tolerate and what you should not tolerate.

Khalila McCoy 35:13

You said that this these last two years have been like beautiful for you. Why do you describe it as beautiful?

Dr. Nicole 35:20

Ugh, first of all, Khalila, I am free. Like, I mean, and I mean that I'm joking, but I'm also so serious. Okay. Because there, I was in bondage. I and I mean, I'm I really mean that. And and a lot of it was in bondage to myself, like to my tightly held beliefs and dreams and all of those things. And also, I was I did not realize until I filed for divorce how much of my self got lost in not just the marriage, but in me trying to salvage the marriage and the energy that I was expending on this person and on the marriage. I mean, I can't even like if I could bottle up that energy and give it back to myself, I probably would leap, leap over buildings. Like, I'm so serious right now. So um the the reason the last two years have been beautiful is that I'm I'm like rediscovering who I am at my core, yeah, and I'm learning new parts of myself. I'm I'm discovering the parts of myself that were like hidden or that I had to suppress, you know, because I'm like at my core, even as a little girl, like I I mean I'm very ambitious and I'm also like funny, and I am like very just I guess lively, but I have become a shell of myself towards the end of that marriage and didn't even really recognize it. And so now it's like all of those pieces are being healed, and I'm seeing like the old version of myself, and it's just been a really, really beautiful journey. And I realized that I would not, you know, as much as we I regret everything that happened, except for the birth of my two daughters, I realized that it had to happen. And like for me to become the version of myself that I am now, and who knows what else God has in store for me, I needed to go through those things. So now I can like embrace it. Where I mean I was angry, like I spent some time angry at God, angry, of course, angry at him, angry at myself, and now I'm I'm in this season of um just recognizing it for the lesson that it was and looking forward to what's ahead.

Khalila McCoy 37:36

How long did it take you to come out of that state of anger?

Dr. Nicole 37:40

Let's see. Um, I don't know. That's a really good question. Because the first I mean the first part was just a lot of grief. Lots of crying, lots and lots and lots of crying. And then from there, I was in my angry stage, like, God, why would you even allow this? And why did you let it go on so long? I would say maybe it wasn't as long as it could have been. I mean, thankfully, I was like, God, when I tell you God prepared me for all of this, He was preparing me. And so I was at a stage where I could, I think, move through this healing process faster than I would have been able to had this happened five or ten years ago. So maybe, maybe three or four months of me being really angry. I mean, if I'm really honest, I'm sure there's parts of me now that are still angry. Because I'm I what I'm learning is it's it's a cycle. Like you, it's not linear. Um I'll still have some moments where I may be sad or I may be angry, but for the most part, I think it took me about three or four months to really move through that like extreme anger and and then move into acceptance.

Khalila McCoy 38:46

Okay. As you are going through that, and then you talked about learning who you are now. What have you learned about yourself that's most surprising to you? Hmm.

Dr. Nicole 38:57

I don't even know if this is surprising, but I guess it reinforced this idea that I can reinvent myself whenever I want, you know, at any age. One of the things that I struggled with when I first um made the decision to divorce is I was 53 at the time. I had been with him, as I mentioned, since I was 17. So all that's a lot of years to invest in a person, in a relationship. And so there was this thought that it's too late for me. Like I'm, you know, this is all it's gonna be, and I'm just gonna be alone and all these things. And and there was this feeling that like everything was wasted. Like, I can't believe I wasted all that time. And so I think the thing that I'm learning about myself is, and also learning about God is that nothing is wasted, like absolutely nothing is wasted. And however many years I have left, you know, that I I still have time to continue to reinvent myself and learn new things and try new things. And so I think that's that's been fun. Previously, I was a pretty rigid, and I think you, you know, you you have to be this way to some extent in the career that I had. Um, but I was fairly rigid in terms of like my the way I moved and like my beliefs and kind of throwing things in a box. And I am really having fun with just like, you know, just kind of being open to whatever, not whatever, but for the most part, I know you mean, yeah. You know, I do still have some some. Yes, but but really like just being open to possibility in a way that I really have not been.

Khalila McCoy 40:42

Do you have any goals currently for yourself, or are you still just kind of figuring it out right now?

Dr. Nicole 40:47

I'm I'm figuring it out, but in terms of one thing that I am excited about for 2026 is I oh my god, am I gonna say this out loud? I'm gonna start dating. Okay. I am gonna date. That is it's scary. It's also exciting. Yeah. But I feel ready. You know, I'm not right now, I don't feel that I am interested in like a long-term serious relationship, but because I was so young when I got tethered to my ex-husband, I really have never dated. And definitely not as an adult.

Khalila McCoy 41:16

Uh-oh, are you gonna go on the websites?

Dr. Nicole 41:19

Oh, see, that's the thing. And that's why, that's why it hasn't happened yet, Khalila, because you know, I I do have friends who have found very loving people on the sites. And then, of course, most of what you hear are horror stories. Yeah. And I know that, you know, it's you're gonna have to pick through a lot. So right now, I am not, I do not officially have any profiles on any of the dating sites. And I also recognize that nobody's gonna just come knocking on my door like, hey, I heard you're looking for a date. So there's some action that's required on my part.

Khalila McCoy 41:52

Well, let me tell you, somebody might come up to you and say, Hey, I heard you're looking for a date. Hey, those are funny red flags are coming up. Like, I feel like the world has changed so much, right? Because back in the day, like that was so romantic when the guy came up to you. Now we're like, what is wrong with you? Like you're talking to me. So yes, that will be interesting. Well, I hope you have a fun time dating and that it goes well. And like you said, you're praying about it, so God will lead you in the right direction. So that's exciting. I'm excited for you with that.

Dr. Nicole 42:25

Thank you. Thank you.

Khalila McCoy 42:26

Now you mentioned you were a pediatrician, and you've mentioned a couple times you've changed career. So are you not practicing as a pediatrician anymore?

Dr. Nicole 42:33

That is correct. So in in 2017, I started a company to help individuals navigate and family members navigate the healthcare system after a caregiving journey with my own father and being a physician who was going to his doctor's appointments and sitting at the bedside in the hospital and just seeing the ridiculousness that is our healthcare system. So I did uh eventually kind of pull back and leave clinical medicine and started doing that. So I still do that healthcare advocacy and consulting. And then as a result of my divorce, I started another company, um, Your Next Chapter, where I am I have a podcast, as you mentioned, and we're creating safe, amazing, beautiful, vulnerable spaces for high-achieving women who are navigating life transitions like divorce or health challenges or midlife or grief or all the things that knock us off of our feet.

Khalila McCoy 43:30

Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about what that space looks like.

Dr. Nicole 43:34

Yeah, so the in the on the podcast, it started with the podcast. So I think about maybe three or four months after I filed for divorce, I just felt God say or heard God say, You're gonna have a podcast. I was like, really? But I by that point, I'm already like, I'm I'm getting better at listening to God. So instead of going down all the questioning that I would do, I just opened up my notes app on my phone and I still have that note and I typed, God said, I'm gonna have a podcast. And in fact, he said, You're gonna have a podcast by the end of the year. This is 2020. No, this is 2024, early 2024. And so then I just started thinking, okay, well, what would I say in the podcast? And I just started getting these downloads. And so I started the podcast on my mom's what uh what would have been her birthday, her heavenly birthday last November. And it it I just felt compelled to create a space where I can tell my story and have other people tell their stories. And it's really centered around disruptive, what I call divine disruptions, things that we didn't ask for. We didn't think that we wanted it, but you know, it it propels you into this beautiful season of growth and healing and discovery. But also to go back to what you talked about, community was really important for me because my community is the only reason I'm able to have this conversation with you instead of being in a psych ward. And I mean that so seriously. Okay. Like the things that were uncovered easily could have landed me in somebody's psychiatric ward. So, but God and but my community. And I recognized as I was going through it, again, I I'm used to be very private. Like I told you, even my bestie didn't know things. Right. I just, God was telling me, share that. Tell this person, tell this person. And I was like, God, I don't even like her like that. This person doesn't even really know me. But I just, by then, he was showing me like, look, if you, girl, if you don't listen, so I just started like doing what he was saying. And when I would share, inevitably, every single time, I would hear from women who said, Oh my gosh, like, thank you for sharing that. I went through something similar. I went through it alone. I didn't tell anybody. I wish I had. So more and more I just started getting comfortable with sharing. So the podcast is also my public representation of what it looks like to be a high achiever, to look on the outside like you got it all going on, and to be dying inside and like what that process looks like and what it looks like to rebuild. Um, and I really wanted to do that publicly, to bring my listeners along on the journey and to really give them permission to let go of what's no longer serving them and embrace the new this new life. So um, so it started with the podcast, and then we did uh I did a virtual event on Galantine's Day last year, and then we did an in-person event last summer, and now I have a small membership community, and I'm just you know, God gives me an idea, and then I just take it and run with it. So uh in this this year in 2026, there'll be um definitely more live events, and ultimately I see a retreat in the future. I believe that's what God is telling me to do. I don't know if that's gonna happen this year, but ultimately this is leading to a retreat.

Khalila McCoy 46:51

Now, is this happening? I mean, at least I know the podcast it spreads all over, but as far as being part of the community, is that do we have to be local or can anybody kind of tap into that?

Dr. Nicole 47:03

Yeah, it's a it's a virtual um community. Um so we meet monthly. We have a very active WhatsApp chat. It's called the RR Collective, and um we do Zoom calls, they're all over. The the women in the collective are all over the country. I'm based in Maryland, so because a lot of my friends are local, a few of a few of the women are in Maryland as well. But there's women all over the country.

Khalila McCoy 47:27

Nice. That's awesome.

Dr. Nicole 47:30

Thank you.

Khalila McCoy 47:31

So having heard your story and everything that you've gone through, and I like your story too, because like you said, it's two years, you're still learning and you're fresh, so it's it's not like your story is done, right? It's not like a situation that happened long ago, and also you're still learning how to move forward from it. So, what would you like our audience, the people who are listening now, what would their what would your takeaway be for them? How can they rise in their situation?

Dr. Nicole 47:59

Hmm, I think the takeaway is that your ability to rise, your ability to evolve, to grow, to expand requires something of you. And what I have learned is that it often requires um letting go of former identities, sometimes letting go of people, it may be letting go of a career. Um that like me, you know, I dreamt of being a physician my whole life, but like everything beautiful that is happening to me in my rising is because I was willing, sometimes forcefully, to let go, uh, to let go of the of a former version of myself. And so I think that we have to um acknowledge that. And if we're you can't rise like I'm picturing like holding on to a balloon, and you know, that if that balloon has helium in it, but you're holding on to it, it's not gonna rise. It's only gonna go as high as you allow it. But once you let that string go, the balloon can soar. And so I think for us, we we have to recognize that um sometimes there are things, seasons in our life where God is telling us that that season is over and it's time to move on. And despite the fear and the uncertainty and maybe even the chaos that you may have to go through temporarily on the other side of all of that is just the most beautiful life ever.

Khalila McCoy 49:28

Yeah, I really like that. I think a lot of stuff we do and don't do is based on fear and trying to really understand that and overcome that is probably a lesson humans will be learning for forever. But it's definitely something we can reflect on on our own personally, and then change how we walk moving forward.

Dr. Nicole 49:50

Agree. I a hundred percent agree.

Khalila McCoy 49:53

Well, Dr. Nicole, I've loved having you and talking to you. I love your energy and just everything that you've shared about your story. And I mean, I'm definitely encouraging um our listeners to check out your your group and your podcast as well, especially if a woman is in this situation. Or I'm assuming too, if someone who's just kind of struggling in their marriage listening to you gives them an opportunity to have somebody, because sometimes it's hard to talk to like your bestie about it, but a stranger who understands what you're going through. So I love that you're offering that space for women. Um I don't know, do you have men in your group or not in the group?

Dr. Nicole 50:31

So the the group is specifically for women. For women. But I'm happy to say I do have some male podcast listeners, and they reach out to me and say, Hey, I know this is mainly for women, but I just want you to know I'm listening to.

Khalila McCoy 50:42

Okay, well, there you go. For the men too, if you need to. Absolutely. All right, well, thank you so much for your time. And I'm like I said, I would love to keep in touch and see how things are going for you. Um, and then I just wish the best for you, and I'll keep you in my prayers as you move forward.

Dr. Nicole 50:59

Thank you, Khalila. This has been a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate you, and I appreciate this opportunity, and I'm so excited about your podcast. Congratulations.

Khalila McCoy 51:10

Thank you. I had such a great time talking with Dr. Nicole. Our conversation felt really reflective, and you know I love moments like that. Looking back, understanding how we got here, and noticing what those lessons are trying to show us about our next steps. So, before we wrap up, I want to leave you with a few questions to reflect on. The first two are the same that I asked Dr. Nicole at the beginning of this episode. One, who are you? I like how she stripped away the labels and what society would define her as, and she really looked deep within herself to decide who she truly was. Two, what do you love about yourself? My next question is what does letting go look like in your life? Because in Dr. Nicole's life, letting go meant that relationship, letting go, she said, also meant her career, maybe how she defined herself originally. Yours can look completely different. And my fourth question is if you did let go of that thing, where would that take you? How would that affect your rising? I really love how Dr. Nicole used the analogy of the helium balloon that wanted to soar to high, high heights, but somebody was holding on to it and stopping it from reaching its full potential. Take the time to write down the answers to these questions, or at least talk to a friend about it, or talk to yourself, or you can even talk to me. I would love to hear what's on your mind. And I will tell you, after thinking about these questions for you guys, I did sit down and answer them myself. And it's led to some really fun, reflective questions with me and my friends. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. In the show notes, you'll find links to Dr. Nicole's podcast, your next chapter, along with her Instagram and website. She just launched season four of her podcast, and her community is growing strong. We wish you the best of luck, Dr. Nicole. And as a fun update, I talked to her early this week and she mentioned that she is going on her first date this week. So I hope it went well, and I can't wait to hear how it turned out. All right, y'all. As you go through the rest of your day, I hope you take a moment to listen a little louder to yourself, to the people you love, and to the things that connect us in ways we sometimes forget to notice. I'll meet you back here next time. See ya bye.